getting paid for supervisors working?

[City Driver]

Originally Posted by 705red

So because you do not have any stones you jump on one of our part timers that does not allow the company to take advantage of him?

Stewie keep up the great work! If city wants to open his wallet and allow UPS to take money out of it thats his call!

Sups should never work, call in full timers on the preload or ask them to stay later, but them doing the work is not going to happen!.

i still get my 10 hours a day, why should i ask for more work i dont want?

[upsguy72]

Originally Posted by PobreCarlos

upsguy72;

Who said I wanted to be in the union? As for those things you say the union brought me....sorry, but I don't see it. Nor can I see where unions - or the Teamsters in particular - overall brought this country and/or its economy anything but a hard time. Subsidized parasites? Sure. Helped the country as a whole? Nope, no way. If it did, then - again - why wouldn't employers simply be rushing all over themselves to hire union labor? See that happening, do you? I suspect that the answer is "no"...and what you see, instead, is the millions of jobs that unions have chased from our shores. Or, like the Teamsters, have pissed-away to more efficient, cost-effective domestic labor alternatives.

But let's take your question of "If you don't like the union then why are you in it?" in a general sense; i.e. - why ARE people in the union if they don't like it?

In a word, it what I mentioned in my previous post...coercion. That is, in non-RTW states, they essentially are FORCED to be part of the union at UPS. They really don't have any option. As can be seen by the example of what's happening in RTW states, if they HAD that option, great numbers of employees would NOT be members of the union. There's a reason why the unions are pushing the "Employee Free Choice Act"...and it most certainly is NOT because they want employees to actually have "free choice", but rather because they realize that the only way they can "organize" today in most situations is by FORCING workers to join. God help them if they actually want to vote by secret ballot (and PLEASE spare me this crap that "they would be able to have a secret ballot if they wanted one" UNLESS you show how this "wanting one" is expressed by having a secret ballot as well, OK?)

Anyway, I realize that your jumping to conclusions is probably no worse than that of tens of thousands of other Teamsters who suffer from the same disease, but still it might be useful if you checked your propaganda-born assumptions at the door when considering asking similar questions.

You get right to the point in your replies you like the job becauce of the pay, benifits and everything else the union has help it members get and keep. But you prefer not to be a union member if it was possible. I wonder if you still work for UPS if it wasn't union you had to pay for benifit, you didn't get a pension and your pay was half of what you make now. And you had no job security.

Why don't you just go find another job that's not Union. Go work for FED EX. I see add for routes that need drivers all the time. They'll pay you $700.00 a week and you work untill your done.

[upsguy72]

Originally Posted by City Driver

i still get my 10 hours a day, why should i ask for more work i dont want?

You don't have to ask I'm sure there alot of your brothers that would be happy too. I understand that there are people that don't want to work anymore than they have to (YOU).

But there are other that would be happy too add a little more to there pay check.

[City Driver]

Originally Posted by upsguy72

You don't have to ask I'm sure there alot of your brothers that would be happy too. I understand that there are people that don't want to work anymore than they have to (YOU).

But there are other that would be happy too add a little more to there pay check.

then ill let them worry about it

[PobreCarlos]

upsguy72;

Nobody is ever going to accuse you of not being the sharpest arrow in the quiver, are they? [smile] After all, it's not like *YOU* would CONTINUE to jump to conclusions, is it? ['nother "smile"]

Sorry, Sport, but I would be just fine if UPS wasn't union, as would most of it's management and hourly employees...or at least that majority of them who are confident of their personal market worth and DON'T feel the need to have their existence subsidized by others.

As for "security" and "pensions".....well, have you actually LOOKED at vaunted Teamster "job security" lately"? Or the security of their pensions? As I mentioned in another post, the prime aspect of being "Teamster" over the last few decades was that you were likely to LOSE "your" job on the basis of that membership; not have it secured! As for Teamster pension security at UPS; well, I can't help but think that UPSers pensions (those of ALL stripes) would be much better off if the company hadn't had to subsidize other NON-UPS Teamsters to the tune of billions and billions of dollars (and make no mistake; the $6 billion withdrawal liability was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of that subsidy!).

This may be a bit presumptuous of my part, but given the personal history you related, I can't help but think of the topics once discussed on the AMFANUTS forum (among other places) before and during the NWA mechanics strike by people who apparently had the same outlook and work ethic as you. You do remember what happened to them, don't you? And do you recall the horror they seemed to recoil with when it finally dawned on them as to what, in the end, "the union" actually "provided" them?

Now I can understand how you might not be particularly happy with the prospect of having your labor valued on the basis of what it's worth on the open market. But surely you realize that I and my associates aren't going to be content subsidizing welfare queens forever, don't you?

Again, "union" attitudes like yours (and they would NOT have to be representative of "union" attitudes generally...even though they often seem to be now) have driven untold numbers of jobs from our shores...and have damn near destroyed wide areas of the economy in the process. It's my contention that this country just can't afford to artificially subsidize those who don't intend to fully EARN their way on the basis of their market worth. Moreover, if we continue to try, I can't help but believe that investors simply will move more and more of their capital overseas, where it's more fairly valued...and take the jobs that capital provides with them.

Unions don't HAVE to be economically "bad" for their members and the country as a whole. It's just that many unions - as they operate today - seem to exist simply (1) preserve an inbred bureaucracy and (2) to piss away the job opportunities of both their members and the labor force at large. And I suspect that as long as they keep their heads buried in the sand, they will continue to function that way throughout their self-imposed short existence.

[altstewie]

Originally Posted by brownIEman

good point.

I work in a slide to car operation. On the slide, if there is work piled up on the slide, there is no such thing as a break in the work flow, and yet I constantly see employees chatting or going into a car to make phone calls and send texts.

So, are you saying if a union employee decides to sit down on the job and stop working, any time he steals is the fault of the supervisor who did not come up to him every minute and get him back to work? The hourly has none, zip, zero personal responsibility to keep working unless someone is telling him to do so? Really? I would suggest even the contract disagrees with you on that.

I hate my fellow co-workers doing that and get pissed off because its leaving me with more work. And youre the supervisor you go through the steps that it takes to get this fired and get someone here who wants to work. Its not that hard. Just follow the procedures as prescribes the contract says and presto you wont have people texting and chatting on the phone. I can't believe that goes on in your building. In our building if that happens, it a definitely a verbal warning and then written and then the suspensions. Im guessing since its a repeating occurence, youre not doing anything to prevent this from happening. Have a strong deterrence like in our building and youll see how fast people stop texting. But my thoughts are that youre probably in a building where the part-time rookie rate is only 8.50 and minimum wage is near that, you might have a population who doesnt want to work that hard for that small rate and also wait a year for paid holidays and benefits.

[705red]

Originally Posted by City Driver

i still get my 10 hours a day, why should i ask for more work i dont want?

Because allowing UPS sups to perform our work equals job loses in the long run! I understand that you work for our "sister" company Freight and really have no idea what we in the small package division go through. But let me ask you this, If you where told that you where being laid off today and on the way out you saw sups working would you than say something?

[PobreCarlos]

705red;

What "equals job loss in the long run" is union intransigence. Or do you think that the Teamsters lost 75% of the jobs they once held in their core industry because they "let supervisors work"? Get real!

In truth, it's pricks that nickel 'n' dime every little management action that cause effective businesses to avoid Teamsters like the plague...and with good reason; the Teamster cause the companies they organize to go out of business ("Oh no! That's not right! After all, Central States is thriving!...grin!). And, obviously (although the point seems to escape most Teamsters!) when the businesses go, the jobs they provided go with 'em.

One would think after the number of jobs the Teamsters (such as yourself) have pissed away in that fashion over the last few decades, that they would have learned by now. But apparently they haven't.

Suggest you do a daily "Google" news search on the search term "Teamsters" over a period of time, and compare the number of jobs lost by the Teamsters (as reported by the legitimate press) with those that are announced as "newly organized" or "gained" by glorious IBT press releases. Then come back with the information you gleaned and convince me that acting "hard-assed" has saved jobs.

Think that, in the face of reality, that's something you'll have one Hell of hard time doing.

[705red]

Originally Posted by PobreCarlos

705red;

What "equals job loss in the long run" is union intransigence. Or do you think that the Teamsters lost 75% of the jobs they once held in their core industry because they "let supervisors work"? Get real!

In truth, it's pricks that nickel 'n' dime every little management action that cause effective businesses to avoid Teamsters like the plague...and with good reason; the Teamster cause the companies they organize to go out of business ("Oh no! That's not right! After all, Central States is thriving!...grin!). And, obviously (although the point seems to escape most Teamsters!) when the businesses go, the jobs they provided go with 'em.

One would think after the number of jobs the Teamsters (such as yourself) have pissed away in that fashion over the last few decades, that they would have learned by now. But apparently they haven't.

Suggest you do a daily "Google" news search on the search term "Teamsters" over a period of time, and compare the number of jobs lost by the Teamsters (as reported by the legitimate press) with those that are announced as "newly organized" or "gained" by glorious IBT press releases. Then come back with the information you gleaned and convince me that acting "hard-assed" has saved jobs.

Think that, in the face of reality, that's something you'll have one Hell of hard time doing.

Your attitude is what is wrong with the mentality of union employees today. You would over look the contract violations with the outlook that has been beaten into your head "your lucky to have a job"

I watch people go home every day because I.E says you cannot put in any extra routes while those of us that work are working work 10, 11 and 12 hours a day. Start times are pushed back for the part timers knowing that drivers will work for free and sups will help get the job done on time. These are violations that happen daily which cost us jobs and you know it.

You believe that calling UPS on these violations will result in UPS going out of business? And its the Teamsters fault? UPS agreed to this language and they agreed to the penalties for these violations so if it hurts their bottom line and earnings that is UPS's fault not the Teamsters nor the members that call UPS on these violations.

This topic is about already unionized shops enforcing the contract, not about organizing new companies. As a member its your responsibility to enforce the contract.

Keep enjoying all the perks you do as a UPSer that the UPSers fought hard to get for us. Also you might want to remember who invited the Teamsters in!

[PobreCarlos]

Red;

No, I believe people like *YOU* will "make UPS go out of business"...or at least out of the business that employs those who are as representative of unions today as you are. Doubt that it could happen? Look at Teamster history. Hell, look at UPS history! In case you hadn't noticed, UPS has gone from almost totally "Teamster" to having less than 50% of it's employees being members of the union in the last 30 years. You see that trend being discontinued, do you?

As for your comment of "UPS agreed to this language", see my prior references to so-called labor "contracts"...and consider just how much ethical credibility they have as "agreements". And consider, for a moment, just how much such "agreements" are worth when companies go out of business. Remember the weeping and gnashing of teeth the Teamsters gushed forth with when Consolidated closed down a few Labor Days back? And remember the wise-ass Teamsters who, right up to the weekend they closed the doors, were talking big about "enforcing the contract" in terms of nit-picky stuff just like you are now? How about Red Star? And how are those Stella 'd' Oro folks doing in the Bronx after their "win"? Heck, let's get closer to home...what are those 710 dudes accomplishing in the way of "saving jobs" with their YRCW recalcitrance? In other words, let's call a spade a spade here.

So, in a word, "yes", I *DO* consider it "the Teamsters fault". While you may consider it the responsibility of the member to "enforce the contract", I can't help but recall that UPS employees are employed by UPS, and *NOT* the Teamsters...and that their primary responsibility is to function AS EMPLOYEES, a responsibility that you, apparently, aren't aware of.

As for what is my "responsibility", I suggest that you, too, try to find a cure for that far-too-widespread Teamsters disease of "jumping to conclusions". Fuirthermore, in terms of the "perks" I enjoy that "the UPSers fought hard to get for us", I, indeed, think of them every day. But I enjoy on the basis of what *UPSers" fought for; not the EMPLOYEES of UPSers. And, in truth, I'm far MORE likely to "think" of the perks that I'm giving *YOU*, and what they're costing me. Big difference there. I understand that it's a difference you (if representative of most Teamsters) aren't quite prepared to deal with; big surprise! And I also understand that, for some reason, many like you feel it's your RIGHT to be subsidized by those of us who ARE the company.

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. You want THAT type of "enjoyment", then I suggest you leave to go form your OWN company...and leave ours alone.

I'm sure you'll be greatly missed! [smile]

P.S. - Guess you didn't choose to back up your contentions via the path I suggested in my previous post, 'eh? Wonder why? Could it be that a million Teamster jobs pissed away by attitudes like yours make coming up with evidence a little difficult? 'Nah...of course not! [last "grin"!]

P.P.S. - If the hours, conditions, etc. at UPS are bothering you, and/or you feel UPS is holding up to it's part of "the agreement", you could also just quit and have the Teamsters dig you up another Teamster-organized job. After all, they've just got tons of 'em to spread around, haven't they? It's all very representative of the type of job "security" Teamsters "enjoy", I'm sure.

[City Driver]

i dont know why you guys put the time and effort into writing these essays back and forth, do you even read them? i know i dont, and im not sure anybody else does either

[Dark_Team_135]

Red,

This guy isn't a Union member or even a UPS employee anymore. Go over to TeamsterNet and look up posts by scb. He was booted from that board for hijacking every thread with these long ridiculous posts about evil Unions, even if that was completely off topic...May as well go ahead and put him on ignore to save your bandwidth or you will be sorry.

[PobreCarlos]

CityDriver;

You say you don't read them...yet here you are, responding to them. See, perhaps, a little inconsistency there? [smile]

[PobreCarlos]

Dark_Team_135;

This yet another typical example of "Teamster Truth", is it "Dark_Team? [grin!]

Tell me, why is it that Teamsters can't seem to open their mouths without telling a lie? Is abandoning the truth now part of the membership oath? Or could you tell me in particular why *YOU* chose to lie now? I really am interested in understanding why.

[brownIEman]

Originally Posted by altstewie

I hate my fellow co-workers doing that and get pissed off because its leaving me with more work. And youre the supervisor you go through the steps that it takes to get this fired and get someone here who wants to work. Its not that hard. Just follow the procedures as prescribes the contract says and presto you wont have people texting and chatting on the phone. I can't believe that goes on in your building. In our building if that happens, it a definitely a verbal warning and then written and then the suspensions. Im guessing since its a repeating occurence, youre not doing anything to prevent this from happening. Have a strong deterrence like in our building and youll see how fast people stop texting. But my thoughts are that youre probably in a building where the part-time rookie rate is only 8.50 and minimum wage is near that, you might have a population who doesnt want to work that hard for that small rate and also wait a year for paid holidays and benefits.

You are correct that we should be much better at holding people accountable to keep working than we are. There has been a huge culture of complacency built into this operation, it is a daily struggle.

You are incorrect when you say the steps are not that hard. They are very complex and take huge amounts of time that I have to spend AFTER all other aspects of running the operation are over, so to do it correctly I have to spend extra time for which I do not get extra pay. It is set up that way on purpose, it is not supposed to be easy to fire people, even when they deserve it.

Look at your own opening post, you talk about the run around you get trying to get a simple, straight forward grievance paid, how difficult is that? The firing process is even more convoluted and the run around that goes through the stewards to the BA, to the labor dept. and back again is 100x worse.

I understand it is my responsibility, I am working on it, but you are being naive if you think it is a trivial simple thing. If it were a trivial simple thing to fire a union employee, even one who deserved it, you should be demanding your dues back.

[upsguy72]

Originally Posted by City Driver

i dont know why you guys put the time and effort into writing these essays back and forth, do you even read them? i know i dont, and im not sure anybody else does either

I know what your saying I don't read them either I I just guess whatthe person said before I responed and hope that I'm on theright subject.

ARE YOU FOR REAL

[City Driver]

Originally Posted by PobreCarlos

CityDriver;

You say you don't read them...yet here you are, responding to them. See, perhaps, a little inconsistency there? [smile]

yes i can see they are extremely long that doesnt mean i read them *********

[upsguy72]

Originally Posted by City Driver

yes i can see they are extremely long that doesnt mean i read them *******

Then how can you responed to them. I guess that is why you don't read the union book it must be to long for you.

[Dis-organized Labor]

Originally Posted by City Driver

i dont know why you guys put the time and effort into writing these essays back and forth, do you even read them? i know i dont, and im not sure anybody else does either

I don't read them either

[Dis-organized Labor]

Originally Posted by altstewie

I did do my job. My first 3 years at ups i was one of the top preloaders in the building with a 4 car pull in front of the belt pulling anywhere from 700-1100 a day. I was the show off kid making these older guys look bad. I was an antiunion guy as well, I didn't understand what it did for me as it took 30 dollars a month from me. Guess what happened to me? I messed up my back pretty bad, What did management do for me..

They decided it was from outside of work since I was an athlete. A runner. I took them to court had a back specialist, my family doctor, and 2 physical therapist against their one company paid for doctor and I won.

People dont grow some balls, they work safe and at a pace where the above doesnt happen to them.

Thanks Superstar, now UPS pays the tab for "the show off kid"?
What were you expecting "management to do for you"? Perhaps write you up for working too hard? You would've had a problem with that as well, I'm sure. Maybe we should've entered your posts into the evidence.
You sound like an Opportunist down deep. Do you also poach deer?

[PobreCarlos]

CityDriver & Dis-organized labor

First, "City";

H.m.m.m.....this "idiot" wonders how you could identify them as "essays" (differentiating them, say, from photographs) except by reading them to some extent.

Then again, if you're NOT reading them, then what's your problem? By that I mean that if you're NOT reading them (which, according to you, you aren't), then they wouldn't be taking up any of your time or your attention; in fact, you wouldn't even recognize them as "essays". And you most assuredly wouldn't have reason to berate that which didn't even cause you the momentary hassle of having to actually READ something, would you?

Anyway, "idiot" I may be....but I'm not so idiotic as to not recognize a bullsh_tter when one sputters in my face.

If you don't read my stuff, then fine and dandy; that's your prerogative. But please don't try to blow smoke up my hindquarters saying that you haven't when you obviously have (see some of my "essays" regarding "Teamster honesty" by way of reference)

Now "Dis";

Good for you! Far be it from me to wish to burden you with the imposition of having to read more than a quick blurb. After all, what's sand for, if not to stick one's head into?

[Dis-organized Labor]

Originally Posted by PobreCarlos

CityDriver & Dis-organized labor

Now "Dis";

Good for you! Far be it from me to wish to burden you with the imposition of having to read more than a quick blurb. After all, what's sand for, if not to stick one's head into?

My point is that they are just too long. Can't you post short, succinct sentences? Perhaps you may not realize it, but human nature is such that most people would probably skip long, non-paragraphed, minimally punctuated, editorials such as some on this thread.

If you want my attention, give me something that doesn't appear to be agonizing to read.

[PobreCarlos]

Dis-organized;

Actually, I don't think I could post shorter, more succinct sentences; not, at least, if I want to do justice to the topics I write about. In fact, I sometimes feel that they're a little too "succinct" already. Nor am I particularly out to get the attention of those who aren't interested enough in a subject to give it voluntarily; that's just not my audience.

On the other hand, you're under no obligation to read or pay any attention whatsoever to anything that I might write here. It's your prerogative to simply ignore me if you choose....and I won't be the least bit upset if you choose to exercize it.

[Hoaxster]

Originally Posted by PobreCarlos

On the other hand, you're under no obligation to read or pay any attention whatsoever to anything that I might write here. It's your prerogative to simply ignore me if you choose....and I won't be the least bit upset if you choose to exercise it.

Thanks ... I feel better now about never reading your posts.

[Sleeve_meet_Heart]

Originally Posted by Dark_Team_135

Red,

This guy isn't a Union member or even a UPS employee anymore. Go over to TeamsterNet and look up posts by scb. He was booted from that board for hijacking every thread with these long ridiculous posts about evil Unions, even if that was completely off topic...May as well go ahead and put him on ignore to save your bandwidth or you will be sorry.

AHHHH

It's scb, aka Scab. Teamsternet Troll.
98% of posts in the labor side, with union dissent.
The long-winded, babbling, epic rants of opinionated bullsh** does stink of him. Par for the course, of course.