8 and 5 key discipline

Discussion in 'UPS Union Issues' started by Solidarity413, Apr 21, 2009.

  1. Solidarity413

    Solidarity413 New Member

    Hey guys, sorry if this has already been posted. I can't seem to find it if it has though.

    I don't really want to argue about the 8 and 5 keys we all have our opinions about them and I'm sure it won't matter when something new comes out next year and we drop them like we did Habits.
    What I am wondering is if anyone has ever heard of anyone being disciplined over not knowing them? I mean if someone gives a reasonable attempt to show they know them but they still don't. Any advice? I'm an inside worker so I don't know anything about the 10-point commentary but I'm thinking about driving so same goes with that :) Thanks guys!
  2. brownrodster

    brownrodster New Member

    Haven't seen dicipline here. We were told to do our best and make an effot to improve.
  3. bubsdad

    bubsdad "Hang in there!"

    They keep threatening discipline here but I don't know of anyone that has actually been disciplined.
  4. UnsurePost

    UnsurePost making the unreadable unreadabler

    I am completely agaisnt it, and have not seen or heard of it.

    What they do here is; if you don't know them (at all, not even able to rattle a few of the 8/5 off), they harrass you. 2-3 times a week they will give you the test.

    When they do this, stop what you are doing completely. They want you to work and do this at the same time, and if you aren't comfortable with rattling them off, you won't be able to while working ( esp if you are doing a thinking job like sorting)

    Just try to make an improvement on them every time. They're easy to learn when you actually try to make sense of them in your head - such as step by step.

    Also to make it easy, you can demonstrate the 8 keys to lifting and lowering rather than say them out loud.

    If there is discipline for not knowing them, I suggest talking to a steward or BA, AND DO NOT SIGN THEIR METHODS EVAL!!!
  5. thelus

    thelus Package Car Whipping Boy

    We have had this issue here at Addison and the answer is if they threaten your job file a grievance under article 37. They are allow to ask you the questions. They how ever are not allowed to threaten your job while doing it. Since its coming from multiple centers/hubs sounds like this was an idea from someone close to the top. I'll admit safety is my number 1 job but memorizing words doesn't help, its my actions that will make me safe, not some Ketter audit . Even if you get your safety questions right, go see a steward and file under article 37 which states:

    Article 37
    Management-Employee Relations
    Section 1.
    (a) The parties agree that the principle of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay shall be observed at all
    times and employees shall perform their duties in a manner that best represents the Employer's interest.
    The Employer shall not in any way intimidate, harass, coerce or overly supervise any employee in the
    performance of his or her duties
    The Employer will treat employees with dignity and respect at all
    times, which shall include, but not be limited to, giving due consideration to the age and physical
    condition of the employee. Employees will also treat each other as well as the Employer with dignity and respect.
    It is not in our contract we have to memorize this stuff. Don't get me wrong it is very good to know this stuff because it will keep you safe and I encourage everyone here to try to there best to know these, but to blatantly threaten an employee that is a condition of employment to get there Ketter numbers up is just wrong.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2009
  6. drewed

    drewed Shankman

    What was the point of the highlighted?

    Heres the deal though, youre making anywhere from 8.50 to 28 bucks an hour to learn a couple paragraphs of text, its a monthly thing so between month to month there should be improvement.
    Im not going to debate the consequences or discipline with it, I just dont understand why its so hard and why its fought as much as it is.
  7. UnsurePost

    UnsurePost making the unreadable unreadabler

    It is not a monthly thing. Supervisors were and are going around at least once a week harrassing people that do not know them verbatim.
  8. drewed

    drewed Shankman

    That doesnt answer the question, why fight it so much, youre getting paid time for it?
  9. pudg00

    pudg00 pudg00

    In our center we have been told that knowing the depth of knowledge questions is a job requirement. Have not heard of an dicilpine for not knowing.
  10. UnsurePost

    UnsurePost making the unreadable unreadabler

    I am in agreement there. The problem I have is that management in our building HAS BEEN HARRASSING employees by

    (1) giving these at least once a week to people that do not know them and more importantly
    (2) requiring the employee TO WORK SIMULTANEOUSLY during these interviews as to not disrupt the operations

    This is a double standard. If you are distracted, how can you perform your job safely? for ex: If you are an unloader and a sup is in the trailer with you asking a series of questions and wants you to continue working, something can easily fall on you while you are distracted.

    This to me is ABSURD to say the least. And also if you are distracted with work how can you answer these questions if you do not know them inside and out (theres many more than just 8s and 5s as you know, and of course some of them anyone can rattle off)

    These interviews should be either taken before or after shift, and if during shift the employee should be pulled aside away from work duties as to ACTUALLY LEARN AND RECITE THE INFORMATION ON THE CLOCK AND ALL THE WHILE NOT BE PUT AT RISK WHILE DISTRACTED.

    That is my main problem.
  11. drewed

    drewed Shankman

    Do you not shoot the hay with you fellow coworkers while you work? I can almost guarantee that I can tell my employees something to remember for the day at pcm after shift they wont remember, but what Jimmys plans for the weekend theyll know. Yea it is a double standard.
  12. Solidarity413

    Solidarity413 New Member

    You're right it's a double standard. I'm happy it is. I'm not going to debate it with you this will turn into a heated thread and I don't want to be like that on my first few posts here :happy-very:! Maybe later!

    I just want to know of any cases of discipline. Thanks for all the very helpful responses so far.
  13. raceanoncr

    raceanoncr Well-Known Member


    I am a feeder driver and I don't get paid "training time" to learn anything except what is thrown at me. So far, this training has not been included. Yet, we still get 10-point, 8-point, 5-point and whatever points they want to include.

    A few months ago, the supe handed me the printout of what we're sposed to recite. I said, "What do you want me to do with this? Read it while I'm driving? Read it while I'm at turnaround? Read it at break? Read it while I'm breaking down and putting trailers in doors?" He said, "No". "Well, what am I sposed to do with this?" "Well, just look at when you can". Ummmmm....what's that mean? On MY time? My run is between 11 and 12 hours a day. When am I sposed to look at this? At home? Do I get paid at home?

    If you want to sit me down and pay me to learn this, then I WILL learn it. Otherwise, work with me on what you got. I ain't doing this on my own. What I remember and recite, is merely from memory the month before. I got 31 yrs of safe driving, 31 yrs of service so I think that maybe I've practiced this without the Kindergarten recitation routine.
  14. drewed

    drewed Shankman

    Ill give you that Racer, but Ive seen a lot of employees sat down taught it demonstrated and not be able to stumble through a couple hours later, repetition is the mother of success thats all it should take
  15. Solidarity413

    Solidarity413 New Member

    Never seen it once. Not in my hub. We get given the papers as we're walking OUT the door.
  16. iowa boy

    iowa boy Well-Known Member

    I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. We have studied safety once for 2 days in the last 7 months and that was only because Keter was somewhere in the district.

    We had to fill out a 3 question paper and one of the questions was "What safe behaviors does your supervisor point out to you when you do one?" There were 4 different people (including myself) that put 'none' on this line as our sups don't even realize we are performing a safe work method.

    Safety here has taken a back seat to the unstoppable numbers craze going on within UPS right now.
  17. fethrs

    fethrs Well-Known Member

    Never heard of any discipline threats and don't have any harrassment at my hub. The sup that gives it to us is very patient and will demonstrate the moves and walk us through it if we have a hard time. I have them memorized, it saves time and impresses my sup and when I see that he's about to give me the "test" I go over the answers in my head and I'm good to go. Hope this helps, good luck!:peaceful:
  18. tiegirl

    tiegirl tiegirl

    Lucky you. At 31 years you could retire and not put up with this ridiculos behaviour that comes from every level of management at UPS. Where do they get so many idiots from? The things they do were I work is unbelievable. I only wish I had enough time in to give it up. Currently I wake up in the middle of the night stressed out with my heart pounding thinking about I have to get out of bed and work another day in the building I work in.

  19. some1else

    some1else Active Member

    i agree with the above; if im paid to learn these i will. however i am only tested on them; not given time to learn (or memorize which is what they want). i would be very happy to sit an write it down over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

    but we all know its not important enough to pay us a half-hour a couple times a month to keep up with it
  20. UpstateNYUPSer

    UpstateNYUPSer Very proud grandfather.

    Don't be obtuse.