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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 305024" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Great minds think alike!</p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/happy-very.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":happy-very:" title="Happy Very :happy-very:" data-shortname=":happy-very:" /></p><p></p><p>Brett's point was also a good one too along these same lines.</p><p></p><p>What's ironic is the issue you raised about secession and I was thinking those very same thoughts when I made my earlier post you referred too. There is a small but growing secession movement in this country now and things like this only add fuel to the fire. I believe that the constitution is in a real sense a contract but it's not perpetual in that it last until the majority change or desolve it. One of my heros, the 19th century abolitonist, anarchist, lawyer and legal theorist is Lysander Spooner who wrote a pamplet in series known as "No Treason" <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20080309031935/http://www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20080309031935/http://www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm</a> in which he argues for the constitution to be bound to ceding generations, those generations must volunteer to that authority and if they don't, they exist beyond it's bounds. Now I know that is radical thought for many here and maybe even you but I enjoy being challenged by radical thoughts.</p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/happy2.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":happy2:" title="Happy2 :happy2:" data-shortname=":happy2:" /></p><p></p><p>Lysander should also be a hero in some sense to all UPSers because he was the first to challege the federal govt's monopoly on mail carrying by creating the American Letter Mail Company in 1844'. Now the gov't put him out of business but he should none the less IMO be a hero and type of forefather to us as UPSers. Lysander also wrote a treatise in 1846 entitled, The Unconstitutionality of Slavery in which he argued that our basic principles and founding, the institution of slavery ran outside those bounds and therefore had no standing of legality. I also would concur with that feeling. However, the likes of William Lloyd Garrison and Wendell Philips, themselves abolitionists, argued because of Art. IV Sec. 2 of the Constitution which required the return of slaves, slavery was Constitutionally protected and yes they are correct in that. Spooner's argument all hinged on legal and natural law theory which in many cases is not considered a part of the conversation when talking about the Constitution but their are hints of it within the document so the inference is there.</p><p></p><p>As we all know this in time led to secession and war and the rest as they say is history. I'm one who looks back in order to see forward because like a good map reader and at one time avid winter backpacker, when you trekked off trail and crosscountry as I often did, plotting forward meant maintaining a good bearing from the rear. We didn't have GPS then. Make a mistake and you find yourself not only off course but lost on the map itself unless you were damn good at reading elevtion lines and detail on a geo-survey map and I was pretty god at it.</p><p></p><p>History IMO is much the same way and today we are coming along regional lines more and more divided as a country, much in the way we were 150 years ago with the issue of slavery although the war itself IMHO was not about slavery. Glad to express those thoughts in another thread anytime. Compounding problem is we lack the knowledge to look behind us to understand what lay ahead of us and to plot the correct course.</p><p></p><p>But the divides that carry us today if they continue to fester, will at some point become infected and the process of secession will only grow. I understand the frustration people may feel about the electoral process especially if their guy didn't win. Hey I've voted outside the 2 parties since 1984' so how do you think I feel? <img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/happy-very.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":happy-very:" title="Happy Very :happy-very:" data-shortname=":happy-very:" /></p><p></p><p>Like you said, if the major populated States come to dominate the entire process and in some respects they already do now, more and more people will become disenchanted, voter turnout will languish and the voices of secession will find an audience. And in some sense, I welcome the day!</p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/happy2.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":happy2:" title="Happy2 :happy2:" data-shortname=":happy2:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 305024, member: 2189"] Great minds think alike! :happy-very: Brett's point was also a good one too along these same lines. What's ironic is the issue you raised about secession and I was thinking those very same thoughts when I made my earlier post you referred too. There is a small but growing secession movement in this country now and things like this only add fuel to the fire. I believe that the constitution is in a real sense a contract but it's not perpetual in that it last until the majority change or desolve it. One of my heros, the 19th century abolitonist, anarchist, lawyer and legal theorist is Lysander Spooner who wrote a pamplet in series known as "No Treason" [url]https://web.archive.org/web/20080309031935/http://www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm[/url] in which he argues for the constitution to be bound to ceding generations, those generations must volunteer to that authority and if they don't, they exist beyond it's bounds. Now I know that is radical thought for many here and maybe even you but I enjoy being challenged by radical thoughts. :happy2: Lysander should also be a hero in some sense to all UPSers because he was the first to challege the federal govt's monopoly on mail carrying by creating the American Letter Mail Company in 1844'. Now the gov't put him out of business but he should none the less IMO be a hero and type of forefather to us as UPSers. Lysander also wrote a treatise in 1846 entitled, The Unconstitutionality of Slavery in which he argued that our basic principles and founding, the institution of slavery ran outside those bounds and therefore had no standing of legality. I also would concur with that feeling. However, the likes of William Lloyd Garrison and Wendell Philips, themselves abolitionists, argued because of Art. IV Sec. 2 of the Constitution which required the return of slaves, slavery was Constitutionally protected and yes they are correct in that. Spooner's argument all hinged on legal and natural law theory which in many cases is not considered a part of the conversation when talking about the Constitution but their are hints of it within the document so the inference is there. As we all know this in time led to secession and war and the rest as they say is history. I'm one who looks back in order to see forward because like a good map reader and at one time avid winter backpacker, when you trekked off trail and crosscountry as I often did, plotting forward meant maintaining a good bearing from the rear. We didn't have GPS then. Make a mistake and you find yourself not only off course but lost on the map itself unless you were damn good at reading elevtion lines and detail on a geo-survey map and I was pretty god at it. History IMO is much the same way and today we are coming along regional lines more and more divided as a country, much in the way we were 150 years ago with the issue of slavery although the war itself IMHO was not about slavery. Glad to express those thoughts in another thread anytime. Compounding problem is we lack the knowledge to look behind us to understand what lay ahead of us and to plot the correct course. But the divides that carry us today if they continue to fester, will at some point become infected and the process of secession will only grow. I understand the frustration people may feel about the electoral process especially if their guy didn't win. Hey I've voted outside the 2 parties since 1984' so how do you think I feel? :happy-very: Like you said, if the major populated States come to dominate the entire process and in some respects they already do now, more and more people will become disenchanted, voter turnout will languish and the voices of secession will find an audience. And in some sense, I welcome the day! :happy2: [/QUOTE]
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