Affirmative Action

[upslocal480]

I signed on to AOL today and on the welcome screen there was a poll and links to chat rooms about Affirmative Action. I've never seen a topic get so heated so fast. It spread like a wild fire. I thought that since UPS is known for using Affirmative Action and also since people get hot on this board for just about anything than it might be a good subject to start up again. So.....what does everyone think of Affirmative Action?

 

[johnny_b]

I like it... but resent those in my hub who get where they are because of their color and sex. Then I usually find out they really are good people. It's tough on the white guy, but a neccessary improvement on society.

 

[upslocal480]

I can't say that I agree with it for hiring employees or for selecting college applicants. I think that a person should be judged on what they write down under the experience section of any given college or employment application and not by which box they checked in the column asking what race they are. I believe people should work for what they want and have to earn their opportunitys and not be handed them based on their race. In the long run I think affirmative action hurts the companys, schools, and also the individuals they apply to on both sides of the table.

 

[johnny_b]

but,

do you think it hurts in the long term as the people grow into their new role? It may sting a little in the short term, but not by much. That is only in the case of colour. In the case of sex, I don't see that it hurts at all. Women are actually superior to men. Yes, I am a beaten man, but it's true.

Isn't the great improvement on society worth the short term 'hurt'?

I think a better question is at what point does it stop? When high positions have proportional numbers or at some point before?

 

[upslocal480]

I think the best way to improve on anything is by working harder at it. If an employer or school is deciding between a black man and a white man, or lets say a male and female, the one with the best experience would seem to be the best pick. Race and Sex shouldn't play even a small part in the decision. Lets use UPS as a good example here....HR has to hire 15 people in the hub by the end of this week. Wouldn't it make since to attempt to fill those jobs with people with good work experience? Especially knowing that UPS is a hard physical job. If most of the more qualified applicants are male than female or black than white then so be it. Or vice versa. It's better for the company to hire someone with good experience that is more likely to take on the physical work more easily and maybe stick around longer. I don't care what color or sex someone is as long as they do the job.

 

[rckfrd98]

I personally would find it insulting to be hired because of my race or the fact that I am female. If I apply for a job and am hired, I want it to be because I qualify. I would think anyone hired for any other reason would be and should be insulted.

rckfrd98's wife

 

[upslocal480]

I totally agree. I have to admit though that I'd probably keep the job or whatever else it might be.

 

[dammor]

I think one thing that we may be missing here is that in a perfect society there would be no need for affirmative action because there would be no discrimination. Point being that we don't live there. Not even close. Just look around and listen. Race and gender are a big deal to some.
So much so that many are not able to prove themselves when given a chance because of the attitudes of others. I have seen it and I have felt it. Sometimes it's vague. It's like humidity, you can feel it but you can't see it.
That's because companys can't do it outright and get away with it like they use to, but they still do it. I have no solution. It's a tough subject. As far as being insulted for being hired because of race or gender, how would you feel if you were not hired because of the same?
It happens.

 

[smf0605]

HR has to follow affirmative action laws. If they don't the government will step in and they will determine who will get hired.
If the local population is 40% white, 40% black and 20% hispanic, then the employees should be roughly the same.
A problem that we have with our management team is this: they have preconceived notions that only men; 6' tall and 180 lbs. make good workers. They don't see the 5'2" 120 lb. female as their ideal worker. When they see the female is their next unloader the supervisor doesn't work as hard to make the female successful because they "know she isn't going tg be able to do the job anyway."
Another problem we face with affirmative action is that females also don't see UPS as an attractive career. Not many girls little think: "I want to be a truck driver when I grow up." It is our responsiblity to let women know that they can be a service provider, and they can be just as successful as men in that field.

 

[proups]

I don't care about race, gender, religion, national origin, or any of the other affirmative action requirements.

I just want a person that can contribute in a positive way....no matter what the job!

 

[whatsthetune]

Remember the argument that women in the work place would be more costly because many would quit when they had families to stay at home?

Well, just read an article, think it was Business Week, that profiled 12 high-flying females that 10 years ago were going places. All but one had quit and was raising a family.

Good investment by the company in their education and training, eh?

I think the best person for the job should get it, regardless of race. I hope the Michigan case at the Supreme Court supports this point of view at university. I am tired of seeing UPS promote people who are not ready for it in the hopes they will rise to the occasion. Not fair to the employee...many don't....not a good business move for UPS....have to replace/retrain.

Opportunity and the law should be color-blind. There are many ways to insure this happens but those at a competitive disadvantage, for whatever reason, don't want to admit it.

Just think if pro sports had to represent its audience. Football and basketball teams would fall apart under the weight of not-so-talented white guys. Soccer and tennis would step down in quality to "accomodate" not-so-skilled people of color. Why shouldn't sports be subject to affirmative action if business is?

Finally, anyone see 60 Minutes report on NCAA Title IV last week? Basically shows that colleges are wiping out mens' sports because they have to show "equity" in spending on womens' sports and don't control their own budgets on sports. They say that all colleges now want female rowing teams, including in the desert in Phoenix (I recall), because they involve lots of girls and not much money. Even placing ads asking for women to join, even if they've never tried it! And then giving them scholarships!!!! What a perverted system.

Affirmative action is poison waiting to be excised from a sick patient...

 

[upslocal480]

"Just think if pro sports had to represent its audience. Football and basketball teams would fall apart under the weight of not-so-talented white guys. Soccer and tennis would step down in quality to "accomodate" not-so-skilled people of color. Why shouldn't sports be subject to affirmative action if business is? "

That is a very good example. If affirmative action is to remain in the workforce and educational system then would it be any different to want it in sports? This door "affirmative action" would have to swing both ways but I think this door should be slammed shut and only quality and experience should be considered.

 

[michael]

I think the reason that affirmative action exists is due to the fact that some employers were hiring based solely on race or sex, ignoring the qualified individual. What the program did was force employers to hire individuals based on other criteria. Unfortunately there were times that the program forced an unqualified person into a position that they were destined to fail at. Other factors were added to the program and from that came the percentages that everyone is talking about.

While it is true that a company must comply with the governments quotas there has been much resistance as of late. (By both employers and individuals) We have seen reverse discrimination lawsuits files by the hundreds. I believe that the affirmative action program did more harm than good. It did, however send a wake up call to many of those companies using discriminatory hiring practices.

Have we come far enough to trust all employers to hire the best person to fill the position? I think that most employers would do that, however their will always be a small percentage that will not. I would like to see the affirmative action program abolished.

Now, before everyone starts to throw rocks at me I would like to propose that some type of group or agency be created, maybe even a government agency that would allow a person to have someone to go to if he/she thinks that they have been denied a job that was given to a less qualified person. Perhaps even change the role of the affirmative action group, give it a new name and a new purpose, make it more of a watchdog group vs. a dictating, mandating group.

I think this would ease the restrictions on employers and an applicant that got a position would know that they got it because they were the best qualified.

 

[proups]

Michael: the watchdog is already there....it's called the EEOC - Equal Employment Opportunity Commission...and they brag in the papers about how they really beat up on corporations with $$$$ going to the person(s) who were discriminated against. Texaco and Denny's stick out in my mind....and there are more!

480 and whatsthetune....you missed it on the tennis and soccer comparison. What color were the two ladies that dominated women's tennis this year? Soccer is a sport largely played in hispanic countries. They beat the USA (white guys) on a regular basis.

I agree about football and basketball in part, but don't forget about all of the talented white linemen and QBs in football. As for basketball, "White Men Can't Jump!"

 

[upslocal480]

"480 and whatsthetune....you missed it on the tennis and soccer comparison. What color were the two ladies that dominated women's tennis this year? Soccer is a sport largely played in hispanic countries. They beat the USA (white guys) on a regular basis."

Actually the US Soccer team usually beats the "Hispanic Teams" and really the only country on this side of the world that is consistently better than the United States Team is Brazil. The sport is largely played in EVERY COUNTRY and not just in the Hispanic Countrys. Obviously you are right about the linemen in the NFL though. I think that the point that whatsthetune was trying to make was that if affirmative action is going continue to be used in the work force and educational system then wouldn't the races that are out numbered in professional sports and women have a legit claim to an affirmative action program in sports then? Most people will agree with him by saying that nobody would want to watch a sport with lesser skilled players that were put on the team because the NFL or NBA had to meet their quota. It all comes back to my point that the best person should get the job.

 

[michael]

proups

I am not sure that the EEOC can help in a case where qualifications are an issue. I know they can help with race, religion and sex discrimination, but have never seen them involved in something of a qualifications issue.

If you know of or have been involved in an issue like this with the EEOC I would be interested to learn more about it.

 

[tieguy]

There are some positives to the affirmative action concept. It gives some people in some venues a chance they may not have gotten otherwise. One clear negative is it tarnishes the minority persons accomplishment. True affirmative action is accomplished when all have the same opportunity to excel and all are considered equally. That should take about 4 to 5 hundred years to accomplish. At that time there will probably be no blacks or whites only a lot of variations of the brown skin. Until then as long as there is someone with a low self esteem there will be racism and prejudice.

 

[trouble1903]

Very well said tieguy.

 

[dammor]

Tieguy,

Good post.