Cherry picking for easy warning letters...

[705red]

Time to lock this thread! Nothing good could out of leaving this open, anything that could have been said has been and than some.

 

[Re-Raise]

Time to lock this thread! Nothing good could out of leaving this open, anything that could have been said has been and than some.

This thread interests me Red because it gives me a glimpse into the mindset of some of our management people like Tieguy.

They don't see that a warning letter for having your hands in the wrong position on the steering wheel is insane. Don't they realize that we have to shift the vehicle,turn on the wipers, reach out to fix the mirror position or any number of other reasons we might have to move our hands.

Yet they can continue to justify it. It is actually very telling.

I have continued to post on this thread because I find Tieguy arrogant and I have never suffered fools easily.

 

[705red]

I have come to repect Tie's opinion most of the time. Trust me, we went at it when I was a little younger non stop, boith of my infractions came becasue he got the best of me. Many time he is just trying to get you going.

But as of lately he does seem a little different, maybe he has been fighting to keep his job with all these cutbacks??? Who knows, but if this thread continues someone could get banned, or at least cross the line and say something stupid!! OOOOPPPPSSSS to late!! lol

 

[Re-Raise]

What do you mean by infractions Red? He has already accused me of abusing my kids and having sex with animals on this thread. I have only accused him of being arrogant and a clown for thinking he can eliminate accidents and injuries with a PCM on the methods.

 

[tieguy]

Tie

What you dont seem to understand is that the driver is damned if he does, and damned if he does not.

[/INDENT]

danny I'm not in corporate. What I find both at work and here is this:

drivers make a decision on what methods they agree with and what ones they dont agree with.

Drivers don't really like our methods and they find reasons to not do them.

drivers do better when being watched and do take shortcuts when not being watched.

I wish your argument was true. I wish they were 100 percent perfect on methods and that the problem was ups finding things to say they did wrong.

but our drivers are not that good yet.

thats what ups finds out when they actually go look.

 

[705red]

What do you mean by infractions Red? He has already accused me of abusing my kids and having sex with animals on this thread. I have only accused him of being arrogant and a clown for thinking he can eliminate accidents and inuries with a PCM on the methods.

Infractions are when you take the browncafe steward into a room with Cheryl and Tony and you are progressively disciplined for contract violations (tos).

 

[tieguy]

bubbles remember how I said you were so eager to try to fire a shot at me that you often rush in without looking?

well my quote was an enhanced repeat of re-raises attack on me. I basically took his bat out of his hands and beat him silly with it.

you just proved my point. I own you.

 

[dilligaf]

Save your money honey one has dropped out and the other one is out in left field arguing points I never raised or defended.

LOL Tie. Thank you...................................... for not saying something that would cause Tony to edit your post. He seems to be doing a bit of that in this thread.

 

[Re-Raise]

Drivers don't really like our methods and they find reasons to not do them.

It is not consistent. It is used not as a tool to promote safety, but rather a tool to selectively harass certain drivers.

Like the example of a driver being disciplined for not carrying a package by the corners. Someone posted that they were given a warning letter for not looking left, right ,left. Where does it end?

I stated before in my 25 years I have never received a warning letter for anything and that is the truth. But if drivers like myself , who aren't in the crosshairs don't speak up then who will.

 

[tieguy]

I have come to repect Tie's opinion most of the time. Trust me, we went at it when I was a little younger non stop, boith of my infractions came becasue he got the best of me. Many time he is just trying to get you going.

But as of lately he does seem a little different, maybe he has been fighting to keep his job with all these cutbacks??? Who knows, but if this thread continues someone could get banned, or at least cross the line and say something stupid!! OOOOPPPPSSSS to late!! lol

Red I'm ok. My new boss is actually someone I've worked for before and a good guy.

For some reason posters here have a problem believing a management person can be passionate about safe work methods and they don't believe its possible to do so without being some kind of blind supporter of the company.

My point all along throughout this thread has been:

the company has turned their full attention to the safe work methods

follow the methods and keep yourself out of trouble.

thats it though many have tried to divert my attention in different directions and they were sometimes temporarily successful.

 

[705red]

For some reason posters here have a problem believing a management person can be passionate about safe work methods and they don't believe its possible to do so without being some kind of blind supporter of the company.[/COLOR]
QUOTE]

Thats because its not seen that much. There is a greater chance of seeing the lochness monster or big foot. All of these are myths, maybe even yourself!!

 

[tonyexpress]

Infractions are when you take the browncafe steward into a room with Cheryl and Tony and you are progressively disciplined for contract violations (tos).

Ahh, the good old days!

 

[tieguy]

For some reason posters here have a problem believing a management person can be passionate about safe work methods and they don't believe its possible to do so without being some kind of blind supporter of the company.[/COLOR]
QUOTE]

Thats because its not seen that much. There is a greater chance of seeing the lochness monster or big foot. All of these are myths, maybe even yourself!!

maybe you guys have seen it and never realized it.

these guys here spent a lot of time talking about everything except the benifits of working safe. This thread has been a great exercise. Some people here want to blame the company for everything under the sun when they can be safe simply be following the methods.

 

[Re-Raise]

This thread was never about the benefits of working safely. It was about "manager's cherry picking for easy warning letters".

Sober hurt his finger hooking up a pup trailer so a supervisor came up with a bs reason to give him a warning letter.

You really can look at the same thing as me and have a completely different version of reality can't you?

He is a 23 year safe driver. You can't admit that this warning will not result in him holding the steering wheel any differently in the future, and that you could issue a warning letter to every UPS driver in the country for this if you wanted to.

At some point they have to move their hands. You lose all crebibility when you continue to deny what is obvious to everyone else.

 

[tieguy]

This thread was never about the benefits of working safely. It was about "manager's cherry picking for easy warning letters".

Sober hurt his finger hooking up a pup trailer so a supervisor came up with a bs reason to give him a warning letter.

You really can look at the same thing as me and have a completely different version of reality can't you?

He is a 23 year safe driver. You can't admit that this warning will not result in him holding the steering wheel any differently in the future, and that you could issue a warning letter to every UPS driver in the country for this if you wanted to.

At some point they have to move their hands. You lose all crebibility when you continue to deny what is obvious to everyone else.

you complain about my posting too much but you keep begging for my attention.

Sober feels he is a safe driver
His management team feels he is an unsafe driver and gave him a warning letter for poor methods.
As I told Sober many times he needs to sit down with his management team and see where the disconnect is.

thats between Sober and his management team and does not affect my credibility. This is another example of you trying to make this an issue about me because you don't have the ability to argue anything else.

 

[Re-Raise]

you complain about my posting too much but you keep begging for my attention.

Sober feels he is a safe driver
His management team feels he is an unsafe driver and gave him a warning letter for poor methods.

The 23 years of safe driving has already ended the debate on whether he is a safe driver or not.

And believe me I am not begging for your attention , it actually annoys me that you exist.

Got to go now , one of us has to work tomorrow. Take care of the ticker.

 

[Bubblehead]

bubbles remember how I said you were so eager to try to fire a shot at me that you often rush in without looking?

well my quote was an enhanced repeat of re-raises attack on me. I basically took his bat out of his hands and beat him silly with it.

you just proved my point. I own you.

The analogy speaks for itself, both forward and backwards.
It doesn't matter to me which one of you wants to be pot and which one the kettle.
You own nobody.

 

[brownmonster]

How do I follow the methods to work safely. How do I slide my next 5 stops down when MANAGEMENT loaded my truck backwards. If you want me to use perfect methods, set me up with a perfect day. Putting a pile of afternoon packages in front of the bulkhead and giving me a letter for stepping over them? It amazes me we have been around this long.

 

[UPS Lifer]

This thread interests me Red because it gives me a glimpse into the mindset of some of our management people like Tieguy.

They don't see that a warning letter for having your hands in the wrong position on the steering wheel is insane. Don't they realize that we have to shift the vehicle,turn on the wipers, reach out to fix the mirror position or any number of other reasons we might have to move our hands.

Yet they can continue to justify it. It is actually very telling.

I have continued to post on this thread because I find Tieguy arrogant and I have never suffered fools easily.

I agree with both you and Red. I would like to thank Sober for starting this thread because it does highlight a number of areas that are important. Besides working safely, the management styles we have has always been an interest to me. I was always looking for ways to improve my managerial and leadership skills to make everyone's job safer and easier to do while following the core values of UPS.

The style of management that reflects using the hammer was always perceived by me to be the absolute least effective. This thread has nothing to do with those few people who will not do the job. For those few people, their job methods and processes may indicate a trend for the use of discipline. We are talking about "cherry picking" warning letters in this thread.

Management who defend and use this tactic can not earn my respect as a leader in this company. .... and they certainly will not earn the respect of their employees. These are probably the same people who blame someone else for why they do what they do. These people think they are sending a message to "get in line" or you will be gone. The message they are sending IMO is, "I don't know any other way to get this done other than to threaten you with your job." Is that the skill of a leader?

Corporate isn't the problem or the solution. Corporate designs the high level strategy, but it is the direct supervisor and manager who implement the process used. When a supervisor or a manager (or anyone else for that matter) states that it is some other person or entity that wants this done, I have a problem with that direct supervisor or manager. It shows weakness, lack of management skill set, and an inability to move your team without the threat of coercion.

 

[dannyboy]

Drivers don't really like our methods and they find reasons to not do them.

Really? How many drivers have you polled to actually get to make the statements that drivers dont really like the methods?

Now, finding excuses not to follow methods is another story unto itself.

drivers do better when being watched and do take shortcuts when not being watched.

I dont really agree with the whole premise of the being watched argument. Being ridden with maybe. But not just watched. So dont think just cause tie said it, it goes down as a solid truth.

I wish your argument was true. I wish they were 100 percent perfect on methods

Whoa there Tie, no where did I or anyone else say that they were perfect on methods. I would bet the farm I could ride with any circle of honor driver, any center, district, regional safety manager for a day and find methods that have been violated or overlooked.

and that the problem was ups finding things to say they did wrong.
And again, putting words into my mouth. I never said it was a problem with UPS finding things they did wrong. What I find an issue is the low level of intelligence shown by the mindset of issuing a warning letter as the best way to force/encourage people into changing behavior or mentality.

but our drivers are not that good yet.

And beating them over the heads with reams of paperwork is going to make them better?

That is where you and I are in disagreement. Not that the drivers need to become safer and better at methods. Sure they do. But your method of enticement is wrong, and that is where you lost me and others on the message of safety. IT now becomes a them and us dance. Instead of having the driver want to make a choice for safety, you use a bat and tell him it will be used carte blanche on all drivers until they get it.

I believe that is 100% wrong, and the absolute biggest mistake to try and teach people like that a better way.

For some reason posters here have a problem believing a management person can be passionate about safe work methods and they don't believe its possible to do so without being some kind of blind supporter of the company.

Ah tie, again with the mis characterizations of what has been posted.

I was very passionate about safety, and was not a blind supporter of the company. I believe in our center, the safety picture has improved dramatically over the years, both accident and injury. And it was done with an active involvement of the employees and management as equal partners in the process.

That is the "buy in" that lifer was trying to get you to understand, but you used ridicule instead. And of course you used your alter-ego to even go further with your side of the argument.

My point all along throughout this thread has been:

the company has turned their full attention to the safe work methods

Good, then make them available for the drivers to actually be able to see and read, not expect us to get it through your good intentions and wishes. Lets see the work methods you want us to know and use.

follow the methods and keep yourself out of trouble.

Again, make the methods available to the workforce. How can you issue warning letters when the majority of the drivers have never seen the methods? All we know is what you as management have told us the methods are. We want to see them. If you want to beat us over the heads with them, let us see them. And not bootlegged copies either, the real thing.

thats it though many have tried to divert my attention in different directions and they were sometimes temporarily successful.

You know, I do applaud you for the efforts to keep drivers out of harms way, I really do. The problem lies in the fact that the methods are a secret, guarded pile of papers that are proprietary to UPS, and as such, they dont want anyone else to have a copy.

But at the same point, you are refusing to allow the drivers access to the actual methods, to see and learn for themselves what the methods contain.

As for changing the subject, let me give you one more example.

In college, I hated math. Not that I could not do it, I hated it because I asked what good advanced math is in the real world and in life. No one could or did answer that for me. As a result, I got by, but really never learned the advanced math.

Now, fast forward to today. I see the need in my everyday business ventures the applications of that advanced math has. I have had to go back and learn things over again, because they are something I want to learn and do.

That, is what point I am trying to make with you.

As long as you beat the drivers over the head as the single method of teaching when it comes to safety, you have lost a golden opportunity to instill a lifetime desire to be safe. And the fact that the current mindset undercuts the efforts of the safety committee is a real shame.

Red,

I know ties heart is in the right place, just not his head. And while I applaud his desire to work safe for all employees (something each and every one of us supports, contrary to his postings), I just think UPS and its managers are going about it the wrong way.

That being said there does come a time with a driver, that refuses to work in a safe manner, where warning letters and suspensions are called for. But not the misuse that is advocated here.

And the civil discussion here is a good indication that we can hold differing opinions without attacking the personalities of the other posters, at least for some.

BTW, I turned myself in for the post on socks, but I guess the ruling was that it was not too extreme, so it stayed.

So unless some stupid person posting something stupid here is a cause to shut the post down, I am for leaving it open.

Best

d