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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 792994" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>bbsam,</p><p>I'm just using your post as a launch pad and nothing more but as I have read this thread and listened to folks voice concern about the cohesive effects a gay person might have on a military unit as in regards to it's effectiveness, I realized just how easy that same arguement could be slid over and used in a workplace work group. Sure, these folks don't live together 24/7 but the same overdriven, ungrounded fears could just as easily be made in a workgroup as a means to isolate and alienate someone who is gay. It never dawned on me until reading this thread why so many do stay in the closet or even lead a pretend lifestyle and fear being themselves around others. I've worked around a few gay UPSers who were open about it and I've never felt threatened or in any measure at sexual risk. I was given the same measure of respect and courtsey as I was by any female who knew I was married and devoted to my family or didn't know that. I find that if you act professional in the workplace towards others the same is shown to you and that's been my fortune working around great people. I can say all were/are great people and good UPSers and I've enjoyed interacting with them at work and they help make me successful at my job and I hope I did the same for them. If this can be the case in the private world, I have a very hard time accepting this can't be the case in the public or even the military world. As we so often discover about public figures, they often lead double lives and I'd bet if the truth be known, a lot of society's heros, even the military ones may end up in private a whole lot different than they were in public. </p><p> </p><p>Benjamin Franklin after the initial failures of the militas to the British Army asked Prussian Lt. General Fredrick Von Steuben to come to America and train the new Contential Army under the command of George Washington. He agreed and came over in time to join up with Washington's forces in the winter at Valley Forge. Because Von Steuben spoke virtually no english, he was assigned 2 aids who also turned out to be lovers because you see, Von Steuben was openly and known a homosexual and yet Washington who knew the situation and who assigned the 2 aids to Von Steuben knowing I'm sure what would happen during downtime seemed to accept the situation. The 2 aids were also known for their homosexual whispering and the 2 men were Lt. Col. John Laurens and the other was Lt. Col. Alexander Hamilton, yeah that Hamilton. Von Steuben went on to write the Drill Manual used by American forces through the War of 1812' and he served as Washington's Chief of Staff in the closing years of the Revolution.</p><p> </p><p>Von Steuben's homosexuality was no secret prior to his association in the American cause but here's the kicker question. What if today's standard on no gays in the military were held by George Washington? How might history be different? And on the "this country was founded on christian principles" which does have some measure of truth but at the same time the actions back in the day sure fly in the face of what we try and portray it as in this day and age. Maybe they had a different measure of what is and what is not "a christian!"</p><p> </p><p>BTW: The skinny on Ben Franklin was that he liked the ladies and they liked him. In our day Ben would have been called a "babe magnet!" Who'd have thunk it!</p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/happy-very.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":happy-very:" title="Happy Very :happy-very:" data-shortname=":happy-very:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 792994, member: 2189"] bbsam, I'm just using your post as a launch pad and nothing more but as I have read this thread and listened to folks voice concern about the cohesive effects a gay person might have on a military unit as in regards to it's effectiveness, I realized just how easy that same arguement could be slid over and used in a workplace work group. Sure, these folks don't live together 24/7 but the same overdriven, ungrounded fears could just as easily be made in a workgroup as a means to isolate and alienate someone who is gay. It never dawned on me until reading this thread why so many do stay in the closet or even lead a pretend lifestyle and fear being themselves around others. I've worked around a few gay UPSers who were open about it and I've never felt threatened or in any measure at sexual risk. I was given the same measure of respect and courtsey as I was by any female who knew I was married and devoted to my family or didn't know that. I find that if you act professional in the workplace towards others the same is shown to you and that's been my fortune working around great people. I can say all were/are great people and good UPSers and I've enjoyed interacting with them at work and they help make me successful at my job and I hope I did the same for them. If this can be the case in the private world, I have a very hard time accepting this can't be the case in the public or even the military world. As we so often discover about public figures, they often lead double lives and I'd bet if the truth be known, a lot of society's heros, even the military ones may end up in private a whole lot different than they were in public. Benjamin Franklin after the initial failures of the militas to the British Army asked Prussian Lt. General Fredrick Von Steuben to come to America and train the new Contential Army under the command of George Washington. He agreed and came over in time to join up with Washington's forces in the winter at Valley Forge. Because Von Steuben spoke virtually no english, he was assigned 2 aids who also turned out to be lovers because you see, Von Steuben was openly and known a homosexual and yet Washington who knew the situation and who assigned the 2 aids to Von Steuben knowing I'm sure what would happen during downtime seemed to accept the situation. The 2 aids were also known for their homosexual whispering and the 2 men were Lt. Col. John Laurens and the other was Lt. Col. Alexander Hamilton, yeah that Hamilton. Von Steuben went on to write the Drill Manual used by American forces through the War of 1812' and he served as Washington's Chief of Staff in the closing years of the Revolution. Von Steuben's homosexuality was no secret prior to his association in the American cause but here's the kicker question. What if today's standard on no gays in the military were held by George Washington? How might history be different? And on the "this country was founded on christian principles" which does have some measure of truth but at the same time the actions back in the day sure fly in the face of what we try and portray it as in this day and age. Maybe they had a different measure of what is and what is not "a christian!" BTW: The skinny on Ben Franklin was that he liked the ladies and they liked him. In our day Ben would have been called a "babe magnet!" Who'd have thunk it! :happy-very: [/QUOTE]
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