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For the American Soldier, Not a Good Storyl!
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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 350124" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Tie,</p><p>OK Tie, This is it. <img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/group1/censored2.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":censored2:" title="Censored2 :censored2:" data-shortname=":censored2:" /> happens in war. As you described could be the scenario. As I said in the original post, if it's true it's very said. Several threads have hotly debated alleged wrongs in the battle theater and most of that was not done out of any objective discussion but was purely driven by political posturing, probably similar to what you are doing in protecting a political POV. </p><p> </p><p>My opinion has been the soldier is slammed into the middle of a minefield where the civilian leadership back home made a decision but when something happens that is a result of war conditions, instead of the civiilains bucking up and admitting these are situations of war, they run for a scapgoat (the soldier) and throw them under the bus. I happen to believe that Abu Garib or however it's spelled was just such a case in point. Were the soldiers action beyond the pale. Yep but I also believe it would encouraged and even promoted from upon high and yet it was the soldier on the ground that was made the public goat. IMO as the years go by once we get past Iraq in it's current form, more details will come out. </p><p> </p><p>The soldier is in a no win scenario where if he makes what may be an honest but tragic mistake, he gets hung out to dry. And yes sometimes by commanders who are in for career not country. Does this sound like some higher management at UPS? If should because it's everywhere.</p><p>If the civilian policy makers aren't going to back the soldier and create situations where the soldier feels such extremes "MAY" be necessary (gun drops), unliike you I'm gonna back the soldier. If I'm wrong in doing that, if that position seems out of wack to you then so be it. Cry from the mountain tops all you want.</p><p> </p><p>Tie, your idea of discussion is to ask 1000 questions and question something to death in what you think is a means to wear someone down till you think you won the argument. You take simple discussions where people express ideas and turn them into some kind of crusade. Then typically at some point you either push or you start the name calling and then once the person comes back you cry foul. I lost just about total respect for you when you acted up over that whole "Browncafe has been taken over by FedEx" crap. You were flat wrong and IMO you caused Cheryl a lot of grief and a true gentleman doen't act that way to any host. </p><p> </p><p>Right now in the Limbaugh thread you keep posting and posting trying to bait BS and when he comes back and happens to do so in a way you don't like you'll scream foul, your cheering section will come to defend your honor and like the FedEx fiasco, we'll have drama all over again. Tie, I ain't playing that game with you because quite frankly you are not worth my time and neither am I worth your's for that matter.</p><p> </p><p>You go ahead and ask your 1000 questions as I've said what I had to say and take it or leave it I really don't care. I thought after the FedEx deal and you came back maybe you have learned but I see from the Limbaugh thread and from this one that you have not. </p><p> </p><p>AV,</p><p> </p><p>No problem with you so I'll answer your question as I think you are asking it. If you mean would I file charges in the US meaning towards the civilain policy makers?, yeah that would be mostly the focus. Unless I could be shown where you acted alone as commander I would follow to the top and if that meant GW, then so be it. The soldier and low level ground command are just following orders trying to do a job that they beleive in although more and more are questioning even if it's a very small question. </p><p> </p><p>In a war scenario, tragic events happen, I think we would both concede that and it's not something that was planned either. I don't appreciate the poliitcal left if you will using these tragic events for poltical mileage and yes I know they do. There are also right and libertarian elements that do also so let's be honest and open here. </p><p> </p><p>One of the reasons I stayed out of some of BS bait was IMHO it was driven by his goal of making democrats look good. I have no problem discussing the bad of war if you will but I'm not interested in doing so where in the end it makes the individual soldier look bad. We're not going at least in that area of Vietnam Part 2. No! Hell! No! Been there, seen that. </p><p> </p><p>If we are gonna go down that road, then this time the buck goes all the way to where it started and let me tell you another little secret, I want this to happen because I also believe there is democrat culpibility involved just as well. I'll just leave that there for some BS bait of my own!</p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/happy-very.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":happy-very:" title="Happy Very :happy-very:" data-shortname=":happy-very:" /></p><p> </p><p>Both political sides want this issue "if" it comes out to remain down low because if it did rise to the top, there's a good chance we'd begin to see Washington for what it really is and we'd begin to understand why so many democrats rail on the nightly news and on the talk shows about the war and then turn around and vote to fund it every time. Washington is loaded with hypocricy on both sides of the fence IMO and why should the hypocrite remain above the fray when America's "UnFortunate Sons" (a play on the CCR song) who answer the greatest call and who place themselves in harm's way just so these civilian hypocrite's (name your poison if you must, I'm probably cool with whoever) can pad their career's and then become high paid lobbyist. </p><p> </p><p>There it is. If that's not plain enough then I'm all worng, i'm stupid, i'm ignorant, I'm uneducated, I'm <u>fill in the blank</u> whatever you wanna call me. I will say this however in closing, I made no judgement when I posted the video other than to say "sad if true" but the fact is the video was out there. In your 2nd repsonse to this thread, you seem to question or at least to me it did, the motive of some of the soldiers in the video and that's fair. You asked a valid question about some soldier speaking only of what others did. That's being objective but I noticed you resorted to using the namecalling as a means to demean or degrade a fellow soldier. don't begrudge the so-called left when you do the same thing. Just something to think about.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/wink.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":wink2:" title="Wink :wink2:" data-shortname=":wink2:" /></p><p> </p><p>If that doesn't answer it all I can't see what's left to say so like tie you can draw, create or whatever your own conclusion, opinions whatever!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 350124, member: 2189"] Tie, OK Tie, This is it. :censored: happens in war. As you described could be the scenario. As I said in the original post, if it's true it's very said. Several threads have hotly debated alleged wrongs in the battle theater and most of that was not done out of any objective discussion but was purely driven by political posturing, probably similar to what you are doing in protecting a political POV. My opinion has been the soldier is slammed into the middle of a minefield where the civilian leadership back home made a decision but when something happens that is a result of war conditions, instead of the civiilains bucking up and admitting these are situations of war, they run for a scapgoat (the soldier) and throw them under the bus. I happen to believe that Abu Garib or however it's spelled was just such a case in point. Were the soldiers action beyond the pale. Yep but I also believe it would encouraged and even promoted from upon high and yet it was the soldier on the ground that was made the public goat. IMO as the years go by once we get past Iraq in it's current form, more details will come out. The soldier is in a no win scenario where if he makes what may be an honest but tragic mistake, he gets hung out to dry. And yes sometimes by commanders who are in for career not country. Does this sound like some higher management at UPS? If should because it's everywhere. If the civilian policy makers aren't going to back the soldier and create situations where the soldier feels such extremes "MAY" be necessary (gun drops), unliike you I'm gonna back the soldier. If I'm wrong in doing that, if that position seems out of wack to you then so be it. Cry from the mountain tops all you want. Tie, your idea of discussion is to ask 1000 questions and question something to death in what you think is a means to wear someone down till you think you won the argument. You take simple discussions where people express ideas and turn them into some kind of crusade. Then typically at some point you either push or you start the name calling and then once the person comes back you cry foul. I lost just about total respect for you when you acted up over that whole "Browncafe has been taken over by FedEx" crap. You were flat wrong and IMO you caused Cheryl a lot of grief and a true gentleman doen't act that way to any host. Right now in the Limbaugh thread you keep posting and posting trying to bait BS and when he comes back and happens to do so in a way you don't like you'll scream foul, your cheering section will come to defend your honor and like the FedEx fiasco, we'll have drama all over again. Tie, I ain't playing that game with you because quite frankly you are not worth my time and neither am I worth your's for that matter. You go ahead and ask your 1000 questions as I've said what I had to say and take it or leave it I really don't care. I thought after the FedEx deal and you came back maybe you have learned but I see from the Limbaugh thread and from this one that you have not. AV, No problem with you so I'll answer your question as I think you are asking it. If you mean would I file charges in the US meaning towards the civilain policy makers?, yeah that would be mostly the focus. Unless I could be shown where you acted alone as commander I would follow to the top and if that meant GW, then so be it. The soldier and low level ground command are just following orders trying to do a job that they beleive in although more and more are questioning even if it's a very small question. In a war scenario, tragic events happen, I think we would both concede that and it's not something that was planned either. I don't appreciate the poliitcal left if you will using these tragic events for poltical mileage and yes I know they do. There are also right and libertarian elements that do also so let's be honest and open here. One of the reasons I stayed out of some of BS bait was IMHO it was driven by his goal of making democrats look good. I have no problem discussing the bad of war if you will but I'm not interested in doing so where in the end it makes the individual soldier look bad. We're not going at least in that area of Vietnam Part 2. No! Hell! No! Been there, seen that. If we are gonna go down that road, then this time the buck goes all the way to where it started and let me tell you another little secret, I want this to happen because I also believe there is democrat culpibility involved just as well. I'll just leave that there for some BS bait of my own! :happy-very: Both political sides want this issue "if" it comes out to remain down low because if it did rise to the top, there's a good chance we'd begin to see Washington for what it really is and we'd begin to understand why so many democrats rail on the nightly news and on the talk shows about the war and then turn around and vote to fund it every time. Washington is loaded with hypocricy on both sides of the fence IMO and why should the hypocrite remain above the fray when America's "UnFortunate Sons" (a play on the CCR song) who answer the greatest call and who place themselves in harm's way just so these civilian hypocrite's (name your poison if you must, I'm probably cool with whoever) can pad their career's and then become high paid lobbyist. There it is. If that's not plain enough then I'm all worng, i'm stupid, i'm ignorant, I'm uneducated, I'm [U]fill in the blank[/U] whatever you wanna call me. I will say this however in closing, I made no judgement when I posted the video other than to say "sad if true" but the fact is the video was out there. In your 2nd repsonse to this thread, you seem to question or at least to me it did, the motive of some of the soldiers in the video and that's fair. You asked a valid question about some soldier speaking only of what others did. That's being objective but I noticed you resorted to using the namecalling as a means to demean or degrade a fellow soldier. don't begrudge the so-called left when you do the same thing. Just something to think about. :wink2: If that doesn't answer it all I can't see what's left to say so like tie you can draw, create or whatever your own conclusion, opinions whatever! [/QUOTE]
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