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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 240074" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Not as long as people continue to only politize this issue rather than focus on real and actual solutions and that is what set me off. I completely accept your distaste for libertarian thought and your views are a majority view in this country. It's the reason libertarians only at best gather 2 to 3% in national elections and I also believe that our society will continue to move to towards ever increasing power of a central federal gov't. I voice an opinion only in the hopes that as we move in those directions we don't allow the gov't to overstep and with that comes the abuse and misuse that always follows.</p><p></p><p>If all we do is debate which scientist is right or wrong on global warming then at the end of the day we'll be no further along from where we are right now and one group of us or the other will be right and the other wrong. In the meantime will we for example have moved away from petro as our economic lifeblood? Probably not. Will that in effect guarantee in some form the emmissions of environmentally polluting products in our air and water? Yeah, we'll still have that. For those interested in fighting the "islamo-fascists" out there and the likes of oppressors like Chavez, will our continued use of oil guarantee those folks to still be power players in geo-politics and drive our own gov't foreign policy and in a real sense our domestic tax policy as revenues are spent to meet any threats the gov't feels they pose?</p><p></p><p>It ironic that in this one area, we have so much common ground that instead of seeing it, we're to dam# busy trying to win a political arguement in order to defend our own little personal cult of personalities. That's what sets me off Diesel. WE, YOU, ME, THEM, US, THEY, ALL, EVERYONE are so busy falling into this trap of politics when instead there is something everyone can do. I know you live in Florida where it's flat but something I do is when I start down a hill in my car and it's not an issue with traffic, I throw the car in neutral and coast. I'm luck that I have a couple of different routes to and from work and in going to I get more coasting in one direction and visa versa on the other. In coming home there's one stretch I'm able to coast over 2 miles distance but it also requires me coasting up a hill and by the time I crest it, I'm going about 5 mph. Now if you're in a hurry, forget it but at 1 am it's not a problem for me so I so it. Net gain for me? I get almost an extra 100 miles from a tankfull of fuel that over a year I guesstimated I'll save about 300 gallons of fuel with at $2.60 a gallon is around $800 in savings. Now what I did really cost nothing except maybe leaving for work about 5 or 10 minutes earlier and getting home about the same but I just denied money to the islamo types and Chavez, took money out of Halliburton's pocket if that makes you feel better, put more gas backlog into the supply chain placing downward pressure on gas prices, put real money at almost no cost into my own pocket, save a little bit of wear and tear maybe on my car (that one's real iffy with me but did nothing worse either) and to the issue at hand, very much reduced the amount of exhaust coming our my tailpipe as less fuel was being consumed.</p><p></p><p>I know you live where it's flat and this idea may have no bearing but instead of you promoting the idea of backing a specific political agenda which in turn others will do the same, why not promote ideas and what one person or a group of people can do? Do you ever once consider that maybe, just maybe for once we could get off our arse and start doing something and drive the gov't towards it instead of waiting for them to lead us?</p><p></p><p>I'm not opposed to good gov't, contary to what you think of me, I'm not opposed to a system of what we call social security, I'm not even opposed to what some call nationalized healthcare. I don't have a problem with either one if you want ot know the truth of the matter. What I do opposed is mandatory participation by the gov't and the denial of the individual to either provide for themselves or the right of that person to contract with another for those said services. A monopoly is a monopoly is a monopoly is a monopoly etc. etc. You would scream bloody murder if a group of private individuals did this but when those same groups of folks step in and manipulate both sides of the political process under the guise democracy (majority rule) you seem to think that grants it total legitimacy and I just don't see it that way. My overall guiding principle is this. By the power of God and nature's God I've been granted certain inalienable rights meaning that no man under any pretense can abbrogate those rights and liberties. And as such I can also not violate in any way those same rights of another person and this includes the use of force or fraud. Now as an individual I can't violate these rights of other human being, I also strongly believe that I can't gather into groups known as political parties or political causes and then vote via the democratic process for others to do what I can't do on an individual level. If I can't go to my neighbor and extract money by force to give to another person or corporate entity, then please expalin to me how I now achieve that right by gathering into groups and voting a gov't to do the very same thing on my behalf under the guise of what we call tax policy? And yes, don't pay the tax and out will come the gun! Tell me how to justify that violation of basic human rights because I've yet to be able to. That thought process forced me to walk away back in the 80's from what we now call Christian, Neo-Conservative politics as I realized the so-called rightwing of the time was violating this principle as much as the so-called left wing was. That's what drives my thought process with gov't. Good gov't should always be voluntary not compulsary and if so you'll likely get good gov't.</p><p></p><p>You want win the debate over global warming because the science is way to muddled because of the politics of force and compulsion. The only way to really win is to get off our individual <img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/group1/censored2.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":censored2:" title="Censored2 :censored2:" data-shortname=":censored2:" /> and do something ourselves even if it's nothing more than changing out the lightbulb from incandescant to flourescent but I'd give long thought to LED myself as flourescent does have a mercury component that ends up in landfills and enters the water table at some point.</p><p></p><p>To end this on a promising note, I read this on CNN just recently and I have to say as much as I love big block V-8's of the late 60's and early 70's muscle car era (my teenage years<img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/group1/thumbup1.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":thumbup1:" title="Thumbup1 :thumbup1:" data-shortname=":thumbup1:" />) I jumped for joy when I read this.</p><p></p><p>It will be some breakthrough like this that changes the world and oddly enough it wasn't some gov't entity or special priviledged corp. Goliath but rather some small "out of the box" thinking person who changes the world and history tells us the greatest advances of man have come via this route and the worse nightmares have come via the collective consolidation of power by the masses through manipulation into the hands of the few.</p><p></p><p>No Diesel, Libertarian Joe is really quite humorous when I consider it came from someone who rails against a current gov't but then only has ideas that would feed even more power to the very thing you are railing against in the hopes that one day his own guy will be back in charge. Seems to me it's like going out and getting HIV on purpose so you can go visit your favorite doctor more often. Makes perfect sense!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 240074, member: 2189"] Not as long as people continue to only politize this issue rather than focus on real and actual solutions and that is what set me off. I completely accept your distaste for libertarian thought and your views are a majority view in this country. It's the reason libertarians only at best gather 2 to 3% in national elections and I also believe that our society will continue to move to towards ever increasing power of a central federal gov't. I voice an opinion only in the hopes that as we move in those directions we don't allow the gov't to overstep and with that comes the abuse and misuse that always follows. If all we do is debate which scientist is right or wrong on global warming then at the end of the day we'll be no further along from where we are right now and one group of us or the other will be right and the other wrong. In the meantime will we for example have moved away from petro as our economic lifeblood? Probably not. Will that in effect guarantee in some form the emmissions of environmentally polluting products in our air and water? Yeah, we'll still have that. For those interested in fighting the "islamo-fascists" out there and the likes of oppressors like Chavez, will our continued use of oil guarantee those folks to still be power players in geo-politics and drive our own gov't foreign policy and in a real sense our domestic tax policy as revenues are spent to meet any threats the gov't feels they pose? It ironic that in this one area, we have so much common ground that instead of seeing it, we're to dam# busy trying to win a political arguement in order to defend our own little personal cult of personalities. That's what sets me off Diesel. WE, YOU, ME, THEM, US, THEY, ALL, EVERYONE are so busy falling into this trap of politics when instead there is something everyone can do. I know you live in Florida where it's flat but something I do is when I start down a hill in my car and it's not an issue with traffic, I throw the car in neutral and coast. I'm luck that I have a couple of different routes to and from work and in going to I get more coasting in one direction and visa versa on the other. In coming home there's one stretch I'm able to coast over 2 miles distance but it also requires me coasting up a hill and by the time I crest it, I'm going about 5 mph. Now if you're in a hurry, forget it but at 1 am it's not a problem for me so I so it. Net gain for me? I get almost an extra 100 miles from a tankfull of fuel that over a year I guesstimated I'll save about 300 gallons of fuel with at $2.60 a gallon is around $800 in savings. Now what I did really cost nothing except maybe leaving for work about 5 or 10 minutes earlier and getting home about the same but I just denied money to the islamo types and Chavez, took money out of Halliburton's pocket if that makes you feel better, put more gas backlog into the supply chain placing downward pressure on gas prices, put real money at almost no cost into my own pocket, save a little bit of wear and tear maybe on my car (that one's real iffy with me but did nothing worse either) and to the issue at hand, very much reduced the amount of exhaust coming our my tailpipe as less fuel was being consumed. I know you live where it's flat and this idea may have no bearing but instead of you promoting the idea of backing a specific political agenda which in turn others will do the same, why not promote ideas and what one person or a group of people can do? Do you ever once consider that maybe, just maybe for once we could get off our arse and start doing something and drive the gov't towards it instead of waiting for them to lead us? I'm not opposed to good gov't, contary to what you think of me, I'm not opposed to a system of what we call social security, I'm not even opposed to what some call nationalized healthcare. I don't have a problem with either one if you want ot know the truth of the matter. What I do opposed is mandatory participation by the gov't and the denial of the individual to either provide for themselves or the right of that person to contract with another for those said services. A monopoly is a monopoly is a monopoly is a monopoly etc. etc. You would scream bloody murder if a group of private individuals did this but when those same groups of folks step in and manipulate both sides of the political process under the guise democracy (majority rule) you seem to think that grants it total legitimacy and I just don't see it that way. My overall guiding principle is this. By the power of God and nature's God I've been granted certain inalienable rights meaning that no man under any pretense can abbrogate those rights and liberties. And as such I can also not violate in any way those same rights of another person and this includes the use of force or fraud. Now as an individual I can't violate these rights of other human being, I also strongly believe that I can't gather into groups known as political parties or political causes and then vote via the democratic process for others to do what I can't do on an individual level. If I can't go to my neighbor and extract money by force to give to another person or corporate entity, then please expalin to me how I now achieve that right by gathering into groups and voting a gov't to do the very same thing on my behalf under the guise of what we call tax policy? And yes, don't pay the tax and out will come the gun! Tell me how to justify that violation of basic human rights because I've yet to be able to. That thought process forced me to walk away back in the 80's from what we now call Christian, Neo-Conservative politics as I realized the so-called rightwing of the time was violating this principle as much as the so-called left wing was. That's what drives my thought process with gov't. Good gov't should always be voluntary not compulsary and if so you'll likely get good gov't. You want win the debate over global warming because the science is way to muddled because of the politics of force and compulsion. The only way to really win is to get off our individual :censored: and do something ourselves even if it's nothing more than changing out the lightbulb from incandescant to flourescent but I'd give long thought to LED myself as flourescent does have a mercury component that ends up in landfills and enters the water table at some point. To end this on a promising note, I read this on CNN just recently and I have to say as much as I love big block V-8's of the late 60's and early 70's muscle car era (my teenage years:thumbup1:) I jumped for joy when I read this. It will be some breakthrough like this that changes the world and oddly enough it wasn't some gov't entity or special priviledged corp. Goliath but rather some small "out of the box" thinking person who changes the world and history tells us the greatest advances of man have come via this route and the worse nightmares have come via the collective consolidation of power by the masses through manipulation into the hands of the few. No Diesel, Libertarian Joe is really quite humorous when I consider it came from someone who rails against a current gov't but then only has ideas that would feed even more power to the very thing you are railing against in the hopes that one day his own guy will be back in charge. Seems to me it's like going out and getting HIV on purpose so you can go visit your favorite doctor more often. Makes perfect sense! [/QUOTE]
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