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<blockquote data-quote="BrownShark" data-source="post: 334918" data-attributes="member: 12148"><p>Big Arrow,</p><p> </p><p>This is probably the best thing you have said in any post so far. So far, you are right on the money. Iraq is headed for the same outcome as in vietnam. Here are some vietnam FACTS for you, other than the "if we had stayed we would have won" speech that RUSH pounded into your head.</p><p> </p><p>VIETNAM</p><p>The <strong>Vietnam War</strong>, also known as the <strong>Second <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochina_Wars" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">Indochina War</span></u></a></strong>, the <strong>Vietnam Conflict</strong>, and, in Vietnam, the <strong>American War</strong>, occurred from 1959 to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_30" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">April 30</span></u></a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">1975</span></u></a>. The war was fought between the communist <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Vietnam" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">Democratic Republic of Vietnam</span></u></a> (North Vietnam) and its communist allies and the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">US</span></u></a>-supported <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">Republic of Vietnam</span></u></a> (South Vietnam).<strong> It concluded with the defeat and dissolution of South Vietnam. For the United States, the war ended in the withdrawal of American troops and the failure of its foreign policy in Vietnam</strong>.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-4" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[5]</span></u></a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-5" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[6]</span></u></a></p><p><strong><span style="color: red">Over 1.4 million military personnel were killed in the war (only 6 percent were members of the United States armed forces), while estimates of civilian fatalities range up to 2 million.</span></strong> On <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_30" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">April 30</span></u></a>, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">1975</span></u></a>, the capital of South Vietnam, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">Saigon</span></u></a>, fell to the communist forces of North Vietnam, effectively ending the Vietnam War.</p><p> </p><p>In the post-war, Americans struggled to absorb the lessons of the military intervention.<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-107" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[108]</span></u></a> As General <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Taylor" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">Maxwell Taylor</span></u></a>, one of the principal architects of the war, noted "first, we didn't know ourselves. We thought that we were going into another <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">Korean war</span></u></a>, but this was a different country. Secondly, we didn't know our South Vietnamese allies … And we knew less about North Vietnam. Who was Ho Chi Minh? Nobody really knew. <strong><span style="color: red">So, until we know the enemy and know our allies and know ourselves, we'd better keep out of this kind of dirty business. It's very dangerous."</span></strong><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-108" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080"><strong><span style="color: red">[</span></strong>109]</span></u></a><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-109" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[110]</span></u></a></p><p>In the decades since end of the conflict, discussions have ensued as to whether America's withdrawal was a political defeat rather than military defeat. Some have suggested that "the responsibility for the ultimate failure of this policy [America's withdrawal from Vietnam] lies not with the men who fought, but with those in Congress..."<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-110" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[111]</span></u></a> Alternatively, the official history of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">United States Army</span></u></a> noted that "<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff">tactics</span></u></a> have often seemed to exist apart from larger issues, strategies, and objectives. <strong>Yet in Vietnam the Army experienced tactical success and strategic failure … The … Vietnam War('s) … legacy may be the lesson that unique historical, political, cultural, and social factors always impinge on the military … Success rests not only on military progress but on correctly analyzing the nature of the particular conflict</strong>, understanding the enemy's strategy, and assessing the strengths and weaknesses of allies. A new humility and a new sophistication may form the best parts of a complex heritage left to the Army by the long, bitter war in Vietnam."<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-111" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[112]</span></u></a> U.S. Secretary of<strong> State </strong><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #0000ff"><strong>Henry Kissinger</strong></span></u></a><strong> wrote in a secret memo to President Gerald Ford that "in terms of military tactics, we cannot help draw the conclusion that our armed forces are not suited to this kind of war</strong>. Even the Special Forces who had been designed for it could not prevail."<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-112" target="_blank"><u><span style="color: #800080">[113]</span></u></a> <strong><span style="color: red">Even Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara concluded that "the achievement of a military victory by U.S. forces in Vietnam was indeed a dangerous illusion."<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-113" target="_blank"><u>[</u></a></span></strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BrownShark, post: 334918, member: 12148"] Big Arrow, This is probably the best thing you have said in any post so far. So far, you are right on the money. Iraq is headed for the same outcome as in vietnam. Here are some vietnam FACTS for you, other than the "if we had stayed we would have won" speech that RUSH pounded into your head. VIETNAM The [B]Vietnam War[/B], also known as the [B]Second [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochina_Wars"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]Indochina War[/COLOR][/U][/URL][/B], the [B]Vietnam Conflict[/B], and, in Vietnam, the [B]American War[/B], occurred from 1959 to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_30"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]April 30[/COLOR][/U][/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]1975[/COLOR][/U][/URL]. The war was fought between the communist [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Vietnam"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]Democratic Republic of Vietnam[/COLOR][/U][/URL] (North Vietnam) and its communist allies and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]US[/COLOR][/U][/URL]-supported [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Vietnam"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]Republic of Vietnam[/COLOR][/U][/URL] (South Vietnam).[B] It concluded with the defeat and dissolution of South Vietnam. For the United States, the war ended in the withdrawal of American troops and the failure of its foreign policy in Vietnam[/B].[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-4"][U][COLOR=#800080][5][/COLOR][/U][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-5"][U][COLOR=#800080][6][/COLOR][/U][/URL] [B][COLOR=red]Over 1.4 million military personnel were killed in the war (only 6 percent were members of the United States armed forces), while estimates of civilian fatalities range up to 2 million.[/COLOR][/B] On [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_30"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]April 30[/COLOR][/U][/URL], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]1975[/COLOR][/U][/URL], the capital of South Vietnam, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Saigon"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]Saigon[/COLOR][/U][/URL], fell to the communist forces of North Vietnam, effectively ending the Vietnam War. In the post-war, Americans struggled to absorb the lessons of the military intervention.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-107"][U][COLOR=#800080][108][/COLOR][/U][/URL] As General [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Taylor"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]Maxwell Taylor[/COLOR][/U][/URL], one of the principal architects of the war, noted "first, we didn't know ourselves. We thought that we were going into another [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]Korean war[/COLOR][/U][/URL], but this was a different country. Secondly, we didn't know our South Vietnamese allies … And we knew less about North Vietnam. Who was Ho Chi Minh? Nobody really knew. [B][COLOR=red]So, until we know the enemy and know our allies and know ourselves, we'd better keep out of this kind of dirty business. It's very dangerous."[/COLOR][/B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-108"][U][COLOR=#800080][B][COLOR=red][[/COLOR][/B]109][/COLOR][/U][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-109"][U][COLOR=#800080][110][/COLOR][/U][/URL] In the decades since end of the conflict, discussions have ensued as to whether America's withdrawal was a political defeat rather than military defeat. Some have suggested that "the responsibility for the ultimate failure of this policy [America's withdrawal from Vietnam] lies not with the men who fought, but with those in Congress..."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-110"][U][COLOR=#800080][111][/COLOR][/U][/URL] Alternatively, the official history of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]United States Army[/COLOR][/U][/URL] noted that "[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_tactics"][U][COLOR=#0000ff]tactics[/COLOR][/U][/URL] have often seemed to exist apart from larger issues, strategies, and objectives. [B]Yet in Vietnam the Army experienced tactical success and strategic failure … The … Vietnam War('s) … legacy may be the lesson that unique historical, political, cultural, and social factors always impinge on the military … Success rests not only on military progress but on correctly analyzing the nature of the particular conflict[/B], understanding the enemy's strategy, and assessing the strengths and weaknesses of allies. A new humility and a new sophistication may form the best parts of a complex heritage left to the Army by the long, bitter war in Vietnam."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-111"][U][COLOR=#800080][112][/COLOR][/U][/URL] U.S. Secretary of[B] State [/B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger"][U][COLOR=#0000ff][B]Henry Kissinger[/B][/COLOR][/U][/URL][B] wrote in a secret memo to President Gerald Ford that "in terms of military tactics, we cannot help draw the conclusion that our armed forces are not suited to this kind of war[/B]. Even the Special Forces who had been designed for it could not prevail."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-112"][U][COLOR=#800080][113][/COLOR][/U][/URL] [B][COLOR=red]Even Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara concluded that "the achievement of a military victory by U.S. forces in Vietnam was indeed a dangerous illusion."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#cite_note-113"][U][[/U][/URL][/COLOR][/B] [/QUOTE]
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