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Has IBT/CS been a wise steward of our pension?
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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 52924"><p>ez,</p><p>Overall I don't disagree with what you say except many on the level of small details but overall good points. I agree with your concern over the large jump from what we presently get to what AWPA is suggesting is possible. I'd be willing to accept the same levels of what we were getting prior to the 03' cuts in the CS plan for example and ditch all the work restrictions. Also if the higher levels are really possible and then only taking what the 03' levels were at CS is leaves room in the future to not only make the pension fund stronger but may even leave room for cost of living adjustments fom time to time that is not there now. I could even accept the post 03' CS levels if they would just ditch all the work restrictions for any under the age of 62'. CS does relax many restrictions for employees who chose to retire after age 62. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK2BC</p><p>In many cases I don't think it's any issue of did the person testifying lie but it more of a case of what ez pointed out above. Sadly what our mom &amp; dads taught us as being a lie is true but our society today has allowed us to twist and omit certain facts and based on what we were taught as kids it's a lie but in society is still allowed to be considered the truth. IMO this is what happens when we turn our society's direction over to the legal community as the MO is to reduce your liability at all costs for one and spin the promises that never deliver but just make you think they do. Social Security is one good example in that the system itself could be a good system just as it is if we had just and honest people in power overseeing it. </p><p></p><p></p><p>This not aimed at either ez or ok but a general comment but I only like the idea of privatizing only because I don't trust the people overseeing it but even their plans I'm sure keep their fingers in the pot in some way and I know all the truth isn't being told. Just go back to the 1935' US Supreme Court and read the case of Railroad Retirement Board vs. Alton R. Co. and then move to 1937' and read Helvering vs Davis and Charles C. Steward Mach. Co. vs Davis where the issue of Social Security is challanged and them move forward in history reading the cases. We are not being told the truth and yes OK both sides of power are lying or better yet they are omitting the facts of just what SS really is. Because of this I'm all for privatizing this as much as possible but even in this effort their motives are not truly genuine. Hell even many of those now opposing privatization in Congress were in fact preaching this very line back in 98' but where were the ones who now preach this effort? They were quite because it wasn't their idea to make their party look good just as now those who oppose are doing such because their party won't get the credit even though 7 years ago they were suggesting the very same thing as a long term fix. They will never truly give this up without some payoff for them. Same holds true in my beliefs with the pension. Both the company and union together have had their chances to run this show and to step forth and open the complete books to the light of day for all to see but they haven't so I don't trust them either and therefore my belief that in the end the only one we can really trust is ourselves with our money. Although I've liked this position for years of the individual employee getting the money directly and then directing it's investment for the future I came to be firmly entrenched in it after seeing what was done with our pension in 1997' and no matter what I will never change that belief. I will however be forced to accept what the larger massives decide at UPS and if I just can't accept this I can and will if need be just quit and walk away. I can't get what I really want and I know this but what I trying to do is seek a plan out that at the most limits my exposure to trouble. One risk I believe we are subjected to is work restrictions as they can cut our benefits like they have and we now are forced in some cases to modify our plans as we are at their mercy. There is no perfect plan as all have risks to varying degrees and you can really screw yourself up if you get to aggressive especially at the wrong time. Just looking to limit that subjugation as much as I can based on what I see and know. </p><p></p><p>Just something else that came to mind for OK2BC to chew around and throw out some thought on. I take from your previous comments that you believe that what we pay in over the years is kinda set aside and invested and that money alone with it's return pays our retirement completely. Now maybe that's over simplified as there are some variables but it makes the point for what I'm about to suggest. You should be all for the idea of a buffet style retirement plan that includes a self managed system to choose from. I could take my money and it's returns out of the current plan and roll it into my 401k for example and then continue to take future payroll deductions for the retirement only portions and place into this new self managed account and based on what I understand you are saying it will have absolutely no impact on your's or any other retirement plan. Having a buffet system would force plans like CS to do an excellent job because if not at any moment we could remove our funds to either another plan of one we self manage. Taken on a bigger scale we UPSers collectively based again on what I believe you are saying could withdraw all our monies and their returns and walk away to either individual accounts or form a new system collectively. Am I understanding your position based on past statements correctly and if so what do you think about this buffet style idea? It does cover the best of both worlds so to speak IMO.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 52924"] ez, Overall I don't disagree with what you say except many on the level of small details but overall good points. I agree with your concern over the large jump from what we presently get to what AWPA is suggesting is possible. I'd be willing to accept the same levels of what we were getting prior to the 03' cuts in the CS plan for example and ditch all the work restrictions. Also if the higher levels are really possible and then only taking what the 03' levels were at CS is leaves room in the future to not only make the pension fund stronger but may even leave room for cost of living adjustments fom time to time that is not there now. I could even accept the post 03' CS levels if they would just ditch all the work restrictions for any under the age of 62'. CS does relax many restrictions for employees who chose to retire after age 62. OK2BC In many cases I don't think it's any issue of did the person testifying lie but it more of a case of what ez pointed out above. Sadly what our mom & dads taught us as being a lie is true but our society today has allowed us to twist and omit certain facts and based on what we were taught as kids it's a lie but in society is still allowed to be considered the truth. IMO this is what happens when we turn our society's direction over to the legal community as the MO is to reduce your liability at all costs for one and spin the promises that never deliver but just make you think they do. Social Security is one good example in that the system itself could be a good system just as it is if we had just and honest people in power overseeing it. This not aimed at either ez or ok but a general comment but I only like the idea of privatizing only because I don't trust the people overseeing it but even their plans I'm sure keep their fingers in the pot in some way and I know all the truth isn't being told. Just go back to the 1935' US Supreme Court and read the case of Railroad Retirement Board vs. Alton R. Co. and then move to 1937' and read Helvering vs Davis and Charles C. Steward Mach. Co. vs Davis where the issue of Social Security is challanged and them move forward in history reading the cases. We are not being told the truth and yes OK both sides of power are lying or better yet they are omitting the facts of just what SS really is. Because of this I'm all for privatizing this as much as possible but even in this effort their motives are not truly genuine. Hell even many of those now opposing privatization in Congress were in fact preaching this very line back in 98' but where were the ones who now preach this effort? They were quite because it wasn't their idea to make their party look good just as now those who oppose are doing such because their party won't get the credit even though 7 years ago they were suggesting the very same thing as a long term fix. They will never truly give this up without some payoff for them. Same holds true in my beliefs with the pension. Both the company and union together have had their chances to run this show and to step forth and open the complete books to the light of day for all to see but they haven't so I don't trust them either and therefore my belief that in the end the only one we can really trust is ourselves with our money. Although I've liked this position for years of the individual employee getting the money directly and then directing it's investment for the future I came to be firmly entrenched in it after seeing what was done with our pension in 1997' and no matter what I will never change that belief. I will however be forced to accept what the larger massives decide at UPS and if I just can't accept this I can and will if need be just quit and walk away. I can't get what I really want and I know this but what I trying to do is seek a plan out that at the most limits my exposure to trouble. One risk I believe we are subjected to is work restrictions as they can cut our benefits like they have and we now are forced in some cases to modify our plans as we are at their mercy. There is no perfect plan as all have risks to varying degrees and you can really screw yourself up if you get to aggressive especially at the wrong time. Just looking to limit that subjugation as much as I can based on what I see and know. Just something else that came to mind for OK2BC to chew around and throw out some thought on. I take from your previous comments that you believe that what we pay in over the years is kinda set aside and invested and that money alone with it's return pays our retirement completely. Now maybe that's over simplified as there are some variables but it makes the point for what I'm about to suggest. You should be all for the idea of a buffet style retirement plan that includes a self managed system to choose from. I could take my money and it's returns out of the current plan and roll it into my 401k for example and then continue to take future payroll deductions for the retirement only portions and place into this new self managed account and based on what I understand you are saying it will have absolutely no impact on your's or any other retirement plan. Having a buffet system would force plans like CS to do an excellent job because if not at any moment we could remove our funds to either another plan of one we self manage. Taken on a bigger scale we UPSers collectively based again on what I believe you are saying could withdraw all our monies and their returns and walk away to either individual accounts or form a new system collectively. Am I understanding your position based on past statements correctly and if so what do you think about this buffet style idea? It does cover the best of both worlds so to speak IMO. [/QUOTE]
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