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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 205246" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Senior,</p><p>No argument that people do stretch things to make their points and some do more than others. We've adapted in public life what lawyers do in court (watching to many lawyer shows on TV I guess <img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/group1/laugh.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":laugh:" title="Laugh :laugh:" data-shortname=":laugh:" /> ) and that is to sell the evidence that promotes their position and so then sit or suppress the evidence that does the opposite. How many folks have been found innocent because a prosecutor sat on hard evidence (Duke players come to mind) he/she knew would prove the innocence of the condemned and there are defense lawyers who knew their client was guilty but they got them off anyway. It happens all the time. How many of us here (all of us) post something knowing good and well there's an equally good opposing point or idea that is contary to what we are suggesting? We just happen to like one side of the argument more than the other and that's just human nature. What do people generally want to do when they have a neighbor who's a real pain and won't stop stepping over into your yard? Build a fence, a big one if possible because "I like my world and don't want you in it!" The secure border idea if the fence for the yard just on a grander scale. Human nature again.</p><p> </p><p>The point and this should be the focus no matter what is that there is a problem and in some areas it's worse and harder on local infrastructure than in others. Those are the facts. The real question is where do we go from here and what is the solution that would be fair, equitible to all and still maintain the spirit of freedom and liberty to all?</p><p> </p><p>As a classic liberal if you will I happen to believe that all borders are wrong and that people should be free to move about and come and go as they see fit as long as they don't violate the life, liberty or property of another human being. Now that said however, in our world I have tax dollars taken from me by deadly force (yes deadly force because if I refuse to pay, that option is left open to the gov't to collect if need be) and that money then is supposed to be used to help our fellow citizens in varying degrees under so called public policy. On top of that, we have a gov't refusing fiscal constraints on it's spending placing even more pressure on taxpayers and even threatening the very people those tax dollars had gone to in the past to help so IMO both ends of the spectrum will and are suffering. If given the choice of my tax dollars going to pay for federal aid to an illegal alien or to help pay for someone in New Orleans who is a citizen to rebuild, New Orleans wins in my book going away and I'm totally opposed to both ideas in the first place because I don't believe this is what a federal gov't should do and in my perfect world it wouldn't exist. Don't worry, I'm the only maroon who exists in "my perfect world" so don't get in a twist.</p><p> </p><p>Yes, we have a problem and yes there will be folks who step up and profit from it's manipulation on bothsides of the issue but the question remains, what is the root reason they come here in the first place and what has the gov't done to help change that mind set? I personally believe and I think a lot of people feel the same that the reasons and the solution to the problem lie in Mexico and further south with the political and economic conditions and not so much the cure being a wall along the Rio Grande.</p><p> </p><p>JMO</p><p> </p><p>Brazen,</p><p>On the issue of race, I tend to agree on principle but in reality in the last 40 years African Americans have accelerated with great speed into the American Middle class and even the upper middle class and as such both black and white have forged more and more into it's own culture having adopted from each to form a hybrid if you will. As a result a level of comfort has also entered the mix and folks are pretty happy overall at where they are at. Right or wrong, both now see a new presense on the rise that accept for small cases have maintained itself seperate and unique to it's culture and social beliefs. Now they fear having this new pressure on the scene could effect and threaten that level of comfort they've worked long and hard for and so now you see these 2 sides coming together to address the believed threat. Having grown up as a kid seeing segregation and the divide that once existed just sticks out so big as we've come so far from what we once were and it's just ironic the issue that is bringing us more and more together. </p><p> </p><p>My neighbor who is a police officer was telling me about the dramatic increase in gang activity and most of it is hispanic gangs marking new turf. What is shocking if not almost humorous is the fact that a number of African American gangs who've controlled the local turfs for years are calling the police with hot tips to get the hispanic gangs busted so the weirdness of the situation is that the African American gangbangers are becoming the eyes and ears of the police to an extent because in their own way they see this as a threat. I've also heard in the prisons where there is a hispanic gang presense that instead of it being the black/white thing it's black/hispanic and in some cases the whites have sided with the blacks. If it wasn't so sad all the way around it just might be comical.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 205246, member: 2189"] Senior, No argument that people do stretch things to make their points and some do more than others. We've adapted in public life what lawyers do in court (watching to many lawyer shows on TV I guess :laugh: ) and that is to sell the evidence that promotes their position and so then sit or suppress the evidence that does the opposite. How many folks have been found innocent because a prosecutor sat on hard evidence (Duke players come to mind) he/she knew would prove the innocence of the condemned and there are defense lawyers who knew their client was guilty but they got them off anyway. It happens all the time. How many of us here (all of us) post something knowing good and well there's an equally good opposing point or idea that is contary to what we are suggesting? We just happen to like one side of the argument more than the other and that's just human nature. What do people generally want to do when they have a neighbor who's a real pain and won't stop stepping over into your yard? Build a fence, a big one if possible because "I like my world and don't want you in it!" The secure border idea if the fence for the yard just on a grander scale. Human nature again. The point and this should be the focus no matter what is that there is a problem and in some areas it's worse and harder on local infrastructure than in others. Those are the facts. The real question is where do we go from here and what is the solution that would be fair, equitible to all and still maintain the spirit of freedom and liberty to all? As a classic liberal if you will I happen to believe that all borders are wrong and that people should be free to move about and come and go as they see fit as long as they don't violate the life, liberty or property of another human being. Now that said however, in our world I have tax dollars taken from me by deadly force (yes deadly force because if I refuse to pay, that option is left open to the gov't to collect if need be) and that money then is supposed to be used to help our fellow citizens in varying degrees under so called public policy. On top of that, we have a gov't refusing fiscal constraints on it's spending placing even more pressure on taxpayers and even threatening the very people those tax dollars had gone to in the past to help so IMO both ends of the spectrum will and are suffering. If given the choice of my tax dollars going to pay for federal aid to an illegal alien or to help pay for someone in New Orleans who is a citizen to rebuild, New Orleans wins in my book going away and I'm totally opposed to both ideas in the first place because I don't believe this is what a federal gov't should do and in my perfect world it wouldn't exist. Don't worry, I'm the only maroon who exists in "my perfect world" so don't get in a twist. Yes, we have a problem and yes there will be folks who step up and profit from it's manipulation on bothsides of the issue but the question remains, what is the root reason they come here in the first place and what has the gov't done to help change that mind set? I personally believe and I think a lot of people feel the same that the reasons and the solution to the problem lie in Mexico and further south with the political and economic conditions and not so much the cure being a wall along the Rio Grande. JMO Brazen, On the issue of race, I tend to agree on principle but in reality in the last 40 years African Americans have accelerated with great speed into the American Middle class and even the upper middle class and as such both black and white have forged more and more into it's own culture having adopted from each to form a hybrid if you will. As a result a level of comfort has also entered the mix and folks are pretty happy overall at where they are at. Right or wrong, both now see a new presense on the rise that accept for small cases have maintained itself seperate and unique to it's culture and social beliefs. Now they fear having this new pressure on the scene could effect and threaten that level of comfort they've worked long and hard for and so now you see these 2 sides coming together to address the believed threat. Having grown up as a kid seeing segregation and the divide that once existed just sticks out so big as we've come so far from what we once were and it's just ironic the issue that is bringing us more and more together. My neighbor who is a police officer was telling me about the dramatic increase in gang activity and most of it is hispanic gangs marking new turf. What is shocking if not almost humorous is the fact that a number of African American gangs who've controlled the local turfs for years are calling the police with hot tips to get the hispanic gangs busted so the weirdness of the situation is that the African American gangbangers are becoming the eyes and ears of the police to an extent because in their own way they see this as a threat. I've also heard in the prisons where there is a hispanic gang presense that instead of it being the black/white thing it's black/hispanic and in some cases the whites have sided with the blacks. If it wasn't so sad all the way around it just might be comical. [/QUOTE]
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