Interesting Thoughts To Ponder on this Most Special of Days!

[wkmac]

For two of the most popular and/or exposed religions in the United States, this weekend celebrates the cornerstones of their very orthodoxy of their respective faiths. Christians observe the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth typically referred to as Easter, whereas Jews observe Pesach, or Passover, the celebration of God freeing the Jewish people, through the prophet Moses, from Egyptian slavery (this year is the extra special, Birkat Hachamah). Whether they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God/Messiah/Risen Lord or that the Messiah is yet to come, Jews and Christians alike should both understand the role that governments played in shaping their religions.

Christians must remember that despite an oft repeated, under-your-breath, anti-Semitic statement, it was the Roman government that killed Jesus Christ. Pontius Pilate, even with his own reservations for crucifying a man he found guilty of nothing (as did Herod), offers the mob of mostly Roman citizen a chance to free Jesus with Barabbas. The mob instead chooses to free Barabbas and kill Jesus, which some scholars argue was an attempt to shift responsibility of the murder the Jews rather than the Romans (as if it was soldiers from Jewish legion that drove the stakes!) . But with his unwavering allegiance to the State, Pilate cannot find the moral fortitude to listen to his conscious and thus orders the execution of Jesus by Roman soldiers. Matthew records in his gospel that the Jews in the crowd lamented, “His blood be upon us and our children.” (Chapter 27, verse 25). Were it not for the murderous soldiers of the Roman Empire and bootlickers like Pontius Pilate, would Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin have anyone else to turn to for prosecution and execution? This weekend, Christians should remember what government henchmen did to their Savior.

Like the Romans and their Caesar, the Egyptians had their Pharaoh; though the Egyptians also had a subjugated slave population under their control, know as the Hebrews. As if suffering routine beatings, forced labor, rape and similar atrocities slaves endure by their masters weren’t enough, the Egyptian government, orders the execution of all new born, male Hebrews. Thankfully, one Hebrew baby by the name of Moses is sparred. Moses grows up to the lead the people out of slavery and into freedom. Though Pharaoh, like all despotic tyrants, would not let his slaves go on a simple request of Moses (and Aaron). It took ten plagues set upon Egypt by God, culminating in the Passover sacrifice of the Hebrews and the death of the Egyptian firstborn sons. The Hebrew’s were to mark their doorposts with the blood of a spring lamb, signifying to the spirit of the Lord to pass over and spare the lives of those in the homes of the Hebrews. This weekend, Jews should remember what government henchmen did to their people.

It would be one thing if the bedrock orthodoxy of these two religions was only rooted in the aforementioned acts of tyranny, but it is another thing completely that these religions are defined by their people’s oppression and genocide by the hands of government! How many Christians and Jews alike have suffered unspeakable torture and murder throughout recorded history by tyrants and despots?! From Nero’s persecution of the early Christians and King Nebuchadnezzar’s forced exile of Jews to Babylon, to the 20th century Nazi genocide of Jews and Soviet Genocide of Christians, millions and millions of followers have been executed through laws, decrees, codes, orders and outright bigotry at the behest of those institutions we entrust to protect and order society. Whether or not Jesus of Nazareth is the Paschal Lamb, Jews and Christians would be wise to agree that neither of their religions fare well when governments are enlisted to preserve their freedoms, their religions and their very lives.

May the Lord bless and keep you; may He make His face to shine on you and be gracious to you; may He lift up His Countenance on you and give you peace.

Yivarechicha Adonai V'yishmirecha;
Ya-Ayr Adonai panav Aylecha v'yichunecha;
Yee-saw Adonai panav Aylecha v'ya-saym l'cha shalom.
Aaron, Numbers, 6:22-27

Have Blessed Easter/Passover
​

source of above coments

 

[Babagounj]

Thank the Lords that O has declared that we are no longer a Christian Nation.

 

[User Name]

I am sure I will know people in both places........lololololololololololol

Not really that funny but I always say it.....

 

[Jones]

Thank the Lords that O has declared that we are no longer a Christian Nation.

It was actually one of our founding fathers who said that.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

At the most fundamental level, I don't want the government involved in religion because they than get to dictate the way we may worship.

I would think that sentiment is at the root of that founding father's statement. I would hope Obama meant the same.

 

[over9five]

At the most fundamental level, I don't want the government involved in religion because they than get to dictate the way we may worship.

I would think that sentiment is at the root of that founding father's statement. I would hope Obama meant the same.

I think he said it to appease Muslims. (And NO, I'm not saying he is one).

 

[Jones]

Here's what Obama actually said:

I think that where -- where there's the most promise of building stronger U.S.-Turkish relations is in the recognition that Turkey and the United States can build a model partnership in which a predominantly Christian nation and a predominantly Muslim nation, a Western nation and a nation that straddles two continents -- that we can create a modern international community that is respectful, that is secure, that is prosperous; that there are not tensions, inevitable tensions, between cultures, which I think is extraordinarily important.
That's something that's very important to me. And I've said before that one of the great strengths of the United States is -- although as I mentioned, we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation; we consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.
I think Turkey was -- modern Turkey was founded with a similar set of principles, and yet what we're seeing is in both countries that promise of a secular country that is respectful of religious freedom, respectful of rule of law, respectful of freedom, upholding these values and being willing to stand up for them in the international stage. If we are joined together in delivering that message, East and West, to -- to the world, then I think that we can have an extraordinary impact. And I'm very much looking forward to that partnership in the days to come.

Here's what John Adams said:

"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries....
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1][SIZE=-1]-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

What's most interesting to me is that it was approved unanimously by the senate. In other words an official document stating that the United States was not a "christian nation" was not considered controversial at the time. Much of the current fixation with declaring the US to be a christian nation is driven by the evangelical/fundamentalist wing of the conservative movement, and has it's roots in the cold war when we were locked in spiritual combat with "godless" communists.

 

[iowa boy]

One of the best avatars I've ever seen wkmac!!!

 

[moreluck]

Iowaboy,
You must be fairly new.......the "ron" avatar is an old one for wkmac and always makes me crave hot dogs......who's got the mustard??

 

[iowa boy]

More,

I honestly did not know he has had different avatars. Between lurking on here and then joining the site, I have only seen one avatar from him.

Not trying to be a smart aleck or anything, just tellin' ya the honest to god truth. And yes, the weiner mobile makes me hungry too.

 

[UPSNewbie]

Here's what Obama actually said:
Here's what John Adams said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1][SIZE=-1]-- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]

What's most interesting to me is that it was approved unanimously by the senate. In other words an official document stating that the United States was not a "christian nation" was not considered controversial at the time. Much of the current fixation with declaring the US to be a christian nation is driven by the evangelical/fundamentalist wing of the conservative movement, and has it's roots in the cold war when we were locked in spiritual combat with "godless" communists.

Thank you, Jones for actually posting what was said in context.

IMHO, religion should have NOTHING to do with government. But that is a day I'll never see, I'm sure.

 

[over9five]

IMHO, religion should have NOTHING to do with government. But that is a day I'll never see, I'm sure.

Hard to do when the big story of the day is which church is Obama going to join.
Who cares? Do we really have to know? I don't!!!!

 

[wkmac]

Iowaboy,
You must be fairly new.......the "ron" avatar is an old one for wkmac and always makes me crave hot dogs......who's got the mustard??

OH MORE!

With the pic of Ron, I'm not sure I'd have made the Craving hot dog comment!
But thanks for the laugh

Iowa Boy,

I've had numerous avatar's as I change up just to add some variety. I used Ron again because I felt it was time for some humor. If you enjoyed it and got a laugh, then you got the exact point it was meant to give. Thanks for the nice comment about it. It has been somewhat popular with many positive comments when I've used it.

Examples of other past avatars of mine have been a hot babe with a mini bike (I was having some fun with the biker crowd here) the Gadsden Flag (Don't Tread on Me) a couple of pics of some 1970's Funny Cars to a pic of the Milky Way, the galaxy not the candy bar although now that's a thought.

If I find a pic worthwhile or that I like, I'll use it so don't be surprised in the near future if I use something else. I wish I could find a way to use a short clip of Woody Woodpecker saying "Guess Who" and then doing that silly laugh or another fav. is Bugs Bunny uttering those immortal words, "Ain't I a Stinker!" Some people are happy and content with the same thing but I like to spice life up a bit.

BTW: Welcome to BC and jump in when you feel the urge. Just don't let the wife find out!


Or Husband, Or Boyfriend, Or Girlfriend! You know this gender PC thingy is getting tough!

 

[wkmac]

What's most interesting to me is that it was approved unanimously by the senate. In other words an official document stating that the United States was not a "christian nation" was not considered controversial at the time. Much of the current fixation with declaring the US to be a christian nation is driven by the evangelical/fundamentalist wing of the conservative movement, and has it's roots in the cold war when we were locked in spiritual combat with "godless" communists.

Jones and UPSNewbie,

After reading your comments above and then Newbie's, I just wanted to pass on something you both might find interesting if you haven't already seen it. Last night, I finally broke down and went and rented the new version "The Day the Earth Stood Still" movie (I resisted because I like the original too much) and going through the Blockbuster isles I saw this movie entitled "Constantine's Sword" that I also rented and actually watched last night. TDTEST is my movie for tonight.

Anyhoo, I think you both might find Constantines Sword worthwhile and what made the movie even more powerful for me was that over the weekend after having shamefully neglected Chalmers Johnson's books "Blowback: and "The Sorrows of Empire", I bought both and started reading. Constantine's Sword had some connections in my mind to many of the points Chalmers was making in his books.

Just thought I'd throw out the suggest in case you wanted to check it out.

 

[Jones]

Jones and UPSNewbie,

After reading your comments above and then Newbie's, I just wanted to pass on something you both might find interesting if you haven't already seen it. Last night, I finally broke down and went and rented the new version "The Day the Earth Stood Still" movie (I resisted because I like the original too much) and going through the Blockbuster isles I saw this movie entitled "Constantine's Sword" that I also rented and actually watched last night. TDTEST is my movie for tonight.

Anyhoo, I think you both might find Constantines Sword worthwhile and what made the movie even more powerful for me was that over the weekend after having shamefully neglected Chalmers Johnson's books "Blowback: and "The Sorrows of Empire", I bought both and started reading. Constantine's Sword had some connections in my mind to many of the points Chalmers was making in his books.

Just thought I'd throw out the suggest in case you wanted to check it out.

Mac,
I've already seen Constantine's Sword and I agree that it's excellent and thought provoking.

 

[UPSNewbie]

Hard to do when the big story of the day is which church is Obama going to join.
Who cares? Do we really have to know? I don't!!!!

Exactly. "LIKE OMG JFK WAS CATHOLIC! END OF THE WORLD!!!1!!1one

Jones and UPSNewbie,

After reading your comments above and then Newbie's, I just wanted to pass on something you both might find interesting if you haven't already seen it. Last night, I finally broke down and went and rented the new version "The Day the Earth Stood Still" movie (I resisted because I like the original too much) and going through the Blockbuster isles I saw this movie entitled "Constantine's Sword" that I also rented and actually watched last night. TDTEST is my movie for tonight.

Anyhoo, I think you both might find Constantines Sword worthwhile and what made the movie even more powerful for me was that over the weekend after having shamefully neglected Chalmers Johnson's books "Blowback: and "The Sorrows of Empire", I bought both and started reading. Constantine's Sword had some connections in my mind to many of the points Chalmers was making in his books.

Just thought I'd throw out the suggest in case you wanted to check it out.

I will have to check that out here sometime.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

wkmac, I went to your link and I will have to say, I don't think I could even bring myself to watch or read what appears to be anti-catholic vitriol from a disillusioned former priest. To blame Christianity, and in-particular Catholicism for all the woes that the Jewish people have experienced over time is just as disingenuous as the current trend, especially amongst acadamia, for blaming the Western white man as the cause for all the problems of the world.

Well, I say bull**** to all of that. This ridiculous guilt some in the Western world feel over our outstanding success gets to be nauseating at times. Has the West done horrendous things? You bet! But when we add up the score card, what good the West has brought to the world is arguably greater than the bad.

In any event, I take no blame and I offer no apologies for what my ancestors may or may not have done. In the end we are all individuals who must take responsibility for our, and ours alone, actions.

As I have not read the book, if my reaction to what appears to be the thesis is wrong, I apologize and all I have to say is "nevermind".

 

[Jones]

wkmac, I went to your link and I will have to say, I don't think I could even bring myself to watch or read what appears to be anti-catholic vitriol from a disillusioned former priest. To blame Christianity, and in-particular Catholicism for all the woes that the Jewish people have experienced over time is just as disingenuous as the current trend, especially amongst acadamia, for blaming the Western white man as the cause for all the problems of the world.

Well, I say bull**** to all of that. This ridiculous guilt some in the Western world feel over our outstanding success gets to be nauseating at times. Has the West done horrendous things? You bet! But when we add up the score card, what good the West has brought to the world is arguably greater than the bad.

In any event, I take no blame and I offer no apologies for what my ancestors may or may not have done. In the end we are all individuals who must take responsibility for our, and ours alone, actions.

As I have not read the book, if my reaction to what appears to be the thesis is wrong, I apologize and all I have to say is "nevermind".

I haven't read the book, only saw the film, but I certainly didn't take it to be an anti-catholic screed. Carroll remains a devout catholic and follower of christ, but he clearly believes that the church as an institution (distinct from individual catholics) needs to acknowledge it's role in the historical persecution of the jews because only by doing so will it make what he sees as necessary changes to the church doctrine which was used to justify that persecution.

I'm an outsider though, I was raised a catholic but left the church long ago so it's easy for me to be dispassionate about it. There are plenty of practicing catholics who share your point of view.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

Funny thing is, I am not a practicing Catholic and at this point some who know me might say I am "anti" Catholic. I just think they are easy targets and I would love that those who take pot shots on them would also do that to some of the other religions of the world. It shows you the gentle nature of Christianity that at least they don't call for your death if you do disparage them.

I just get tired of the West being used as the scapegoat for the world's ills, especially as they cash in on our generosity. I feel the Christian bashing that has been happening over the course of my lifetime is symptomatic of this.

 

[wkmac]

wkmac, I went to your link and I will have to say, I don't think I could even bring myself to watch or read what appears to be anti-catholic vitriol from a disillusioned former priest. To blame Christianity, and in-particular Catholicism for all the woes that the Jewish people have experienced over time is just as disingenuous as the current trend, especially amongst acadamia, for blaming the Western white man as the cause for all the problems of the world.

Well, I say bull**** to all of that. This ridiculous guilt some in the Western world feel over our outstanding success gets to be nauseating at times. Has the West done horrendous things? You bet! But when we add up the score card, what good the West has brought to the world is arguably greater than the bad.

In any event, I take no blame and I offer no apologies for what my ancestors may or may not have done. In the end we are all individuals who must take responsibility for our, and ours alone, actions.

As I have not read the book, if my reaction to what appears to be the thesis is wrong, I apologize and all I have to say is "nevermind".

I just saw the conversation you and Jones were having over the State and Religion and from my POV, the video using the premise and launchpoint of Constantine (State Religion) showed the dangers of when you mix religion and state. I'm not catholic but I didn't take the video to be anti-catholic at all.