Management Pensions

[oldbrownguy]

I have been reading this forum for years and I have finally decided to add my one cent worth. It used to two cents worth, but what the hell, they have cut just about everything else from us...lol I have been what I consider to be a very loyal employee of over 30 years. I have seen it all and had my share of joys and frustrations. But this present leadership is ruining our once great company. You all know whats taking place, so I am not going to rehash all the details. The one thing that is of great concern to me and many other long timer management people, it our lousy pension. Once I qualified with the years and age requirements, I started to look at it. It didnt take long to realize its going to be less than 50% of my present salary.
In the old days (pre wall street), we could count on the BOD meeting every qtr and the stock would go up 3-4 $$ per share. Then it would split regularly and pay a nice dividend. Many of us took out hypo loans to help our portfolio grow (and it did). Under that scenario, folks built up a nice UPS stock packet worth over a million $ (for most one unit sups that held onto their stock). Then when they retired, UPS would (Maybe) by back up to 10% per year. So the pension didnt matter because the stock was still growing and paying a nice dividend and, they could sell about a 100K per year and live a very nice life. But thats all changed, and the biggest thing is, NOBODY IN ATLANTA CARES that the present pension program for management people STINKS !!

 

[InsideUPS]

I have been reading this forum for years and I have finally decided to add my one cent worth. It used to two cents worth, but what the hell, they have cut just about everything else from us...lol I have been what I consider to be a very loyal employee of over 30 years. I have seen it all and had my share of joys and frustrations. But this present leadership is ruining our once great company. You all know whats taking place, so I am not going to rehash all the details. The one thing that is of great concern to me and many other long timer management people, it our lousy pension. Once I qualified with the years and age requirements, I started to look at it. It didnt take long to realize its going to be less than 50% of my present salary.
In the old days (pre wall street), we could count on the BOD meeting every qtr and the stock would go up 3-4 $$ per share. Then it would split regularly and pay a nice dividend. Many of us took out hypo loans to help our portfolio grow (and it did). Under that scenario, folks built up a nice UPS stock packet worth over a million $ (for most one unit sups that held onto their stock). Then when they retired, UPS would (Maybe) by back up to 10% per year. So the pension didnt matter because the stock was still growing and paying a nice dividend and, they could sell about a 100K per year and live a very nice life. But thats all changed, and the biggest thing is, NOBODY IN ATLANTA CARES that the present pension program for management people STINKS !!

"Scott Davis" -CEO...Accountant ...a.k.a. Bean Counter - His legacy will be that he led UPS to record profits in the short term....... while positioning the company for failure in the long term.

What many hourly do not realize is that many younger generation management employees (post IPO) do not get near the salary or benefits that our older generation management (pre-IPO) received. As a 35 year hourly employee, I feel that the the older generation management was MUCH more qualified and capable than these new "non-stock receiving" supervisors that have very little experience. This is all a result of ATLANTA believing that they can put anybody in these centers and run the operations with the new technology from their desks in ATLANTA. It is my understanding that even our building heat in the north is controlled by ATLANTA.

You speak of the "good old" days when 1/4 of the UPS stock was invested in offshore foreign accounts that was the "golden goose" portion of the stock. Of course...that was discovered to be illegal in which UPS was fined....and we eventually went public to raise more capital.

In summary, the morale at UPS of both management and hourly is at an all time low. Reducing the benefits of management will only attract less qualified people to go into management in the future. If you are getting 50% of your current salary as a pension, consider yourself lucky when compared to many drivers. ($36K per year for a 30 year Central States).

 

[Catatonic]

"Scott Davis" -CEO...Accountant ...a.k.a. Bean Counter - His legacy will be that he led UPS to record profits in the short term....... while positioning the company for failure in the long term.

What many hourly do not realize is that many younger generation management employees (post IPO) do not get near the salary or benefits that our older generation management (pre-IPO) received. As a 35 year hourly employee, I feel that the the older generation management was MUCH more qualified and capable than these new "non-stock receiving" supervisors that have very little experience. This is all a result of ATLANTA believing that they can put anybody in these centers and run the operations with the new technology from their desks in ATLANTA. It is my understanding that even our building heat in the north is controlled by ATLANTA.

You speak of the "good old" days when 1/4 of the UPS stock was invested in offshore foreign accounts that was the "golden goose" portion of the stock. Of course...that was discovered to be illegal in which UPS was fined....and we eventually went public to raise more capital.

In summary, the morale at UPS of both management and hourly is at an all time low. Reducing the benefits of management will only attract less qualified people to go into management in the future. If you are getting 50% of your current salary as a pension, consider yourself lucky when compared to many drivers. ($36K per year for a 30 year Central States).

Whatever else you posted is put in question by this totally erroneous post.
UPS was not fined and it was determined that the company OPL (the offshore foreign account) was a legally acceptable entity.
Other companies still perform these same type off-shore functions today as a result of the outcome of the UPS/OPL litigation.

 

[rudy5150]

Morale is def way down for union and managment!!! White collar criminals no doubt!! I totally agree short term record profits yet a lower qualified staff in the future will lead to the downfall of this company. Nobody union or managment should have to deal with so much BS daily. Its a joke!

 

[Seasonal Help]

Whatever else you posted is put in question by this totally erroneous post.
UPS was not fined and it was determined that the company OPL (the offshore foreign account) was a legally acceptable entity.
Other companies still perform these same type off-shore functions today as a result of the outcome of the UPS/OPL litigation.​

​

UPS may not have been fined, but we did put 1.8 billion to the government's account which we used to defer future tax obligations. And, if it was a legally acceptable entity, then why isn't it there anymore?

 

[upscorpis]

Wow - what a different perspective. In a prior thread, I'm positioning the pension as the only thing that retains many of the best people I know. Oldbrownguy, have you checked your expectations against what exists elsewhere? Can you please point to the company that has the better pension plan? I may want to go work there - seriously.

 

[InsideUPS]

Whatever else you posted is put in question by this totally erroneous post.
UPS was not fined and it was determined that the company OPL (the offshore foreign account) was a legally acceptable entity.
Other companies still perform these same type off-shore functions today as a result of the outcome of the UPS/OPL litigation.

I'm sorry Hoaxster....I must have been thinking about the 27 lawsuits that were brought against UPS as reported here...so......"totally erroneous"????? UPS "settling" I agree is technically not a fine...


http://www.businessinsurance.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=999920004207


Atlanta-based UPS was hit with 27 such lawsuits across the country after a U.S. Tax Court judge ruled in 1999 that Bermuda-based Overseas Partners Ltd. was a "sham" intended to divert taxable UPS income from the excess-value program. A panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals later overturned the ruling, finding that OPL served a legitimate business purpose.
The class actions continued, though, after being consolidated before U.S. District Judge Richard Berman in New York. Judge Berman on Friday approved the terms of a settlement, under which UPS would pay no cash but would grant customers covered by the deal vouchers good for future UPS shipments.
While plaintiffs lawyers valued the vouchers at $205 million, a UPS spokesman insisted that "it's going to be notably less than that."
- See more at: http://www.businessinsurance.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=999920004207#sthash.HDJdSVfr.dpuf

 

[InsideUPS]

Whatever else you posted is put in question by this totally erroneous post.
UPS was not fined and it was determined that the company OPL (the offshore foreign account) was a legally acceptable entity.
Other companies still perform these same type off-shore functions today as a result of the outcome of the UPS/OPL litigation.

You sure seem a little "sensitive" on this topic Hoaxster.... The Internet is full of information about the controversy surrounding OPL...."sham" sure comes up a lot and that is NOT my word. OPL must have been near and dear to your Atlanta heart.

The IRS attacked the foregoing on several grounds but basically argued that the arrangement was essentially a "sham" with no economic sub-
stance and no business purpose other than tax savings and simply a diver- sion (i.e. assignment) of income in fact earned by UPS to another com- monly controlled offshore entity.
The Tax Court essentially agreed with the IRS and treated the whole arrangement as a sham, largely based on their perception that UPS continued to do most of the same business functions surrounding the EVC activity after the restructuring that it had done prior to the restructuring.


Just one more link.... http://www.andersonkill.com/webpdfext/PE-200110CorpCnsl.pdf

 

[InsideUPS]

​

​

UPS may not have been fined, but we did put 1.8 billion to the government's account which we used to defer future tax obligations. And, if it was a legally acceptable entity, then why isn't it there anymore?

Good question........same question that was presented on "The Motley Fools.com"..

 

[Catatonic]

Whatever else you posted is put in question by this totally erroneous post.
UPS was not fined and it was determined that the company OPL (the offshore foreign account) was a legally acceptable entity.
Other companies still perform these same type off-shore functions today as a result of the outcome of the UPS/OPL litigation.​

​

UPS may not have been fined, but we did put 1.8 billion to the government's account which we used to defer future tax obligations. And, if it was a legally acceptable entity, then why isn't it there anymore?

The 1.8B was put in an escrow account before the ruling that OPL was a viable business entity.
UPS got it back after that ruling.

 

[Catatonic]

I'm sorry Hoaxster....I must have been thinking about the 27 lawsuits that were brought against UPS as reported here...so......"totally erroneous"????? UPS "settling" I agree is technically not a fine...


http://www.businessinsurance.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=999920004207


Atlanta-based UPS was hit with 27 such lawsuits across the country after a U.S. Tax Court judge ruled in 1999 that Bermuda-based Overseas Partners Ltd. was a "sham" intended to divert taxable UPS income from the excess-value program."
- See more at: http://www.businessinsurance.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=999920004207#sthash.HDJdSVfr.dpuf

InsideUPS,
I assume you are a younger UPS person that did not have OPL ... I did.

Thank you for posting these links as they prove exactly, as I stated, that OPL was a legitimate legal business entity making a profit.
UPS did not pay any fines and the 1.8B was accrued funds that the IRS said UPS owed and would owe if the IRS claim was upheld.
The IRS claim was overturned and UPS got all the money that UPS had put into the escrow account.

And in an unrelated occurrence, the 27 sham lawsuits were filed by ambulance-chaser lawyers against UPS under the guise of class-action lawsuits and were not related in a legal sense to the IRS lawsuit against UPS-NUG-UPS. UPS settled the cases for less than the legal fees they paid to defend them.
As usual, the sham lawyers won and almost none of the "coupons" were used as is normal with these sham-type class action suits. The lawyers that file these sham lawsuits don't care about the plantiffs ... just getting their legal fees paid which, as in this case, were included in the settlement.

My interest in the OPL relationship was as a stockholder that lost probably $50,000 because of the IRS lawsuit. I had a vested interest to keep up with the on-goings of OPL and it's status. Whether my interest and analysis is impartial and objective can certainly be in question.

Why UPS decided to dissolve the relationship with NUG and OPL is not known to me but UPS, at least at that time, liked to keep a low-profile, squeaky-clean image. I think UPS decided it was not worth the risk to their brand. The biggest benefit of OPL was to the OPL shareholders which was mostly UPS and management. It was about this time that UPS decided that paternally taking care of UPS employees was not needed anymore.

And I am a French model ... bonjour.

 

[InsideUPS]

The 1.8B was put in an escrow account before the ruling that OPL was a viable business entity.
UPS got it back after that ruling.

Just to be clear on this issue.....the 2006 article below seems to indicate that UPS did end up paying $1.2 billion...even after the the 11[SUP]th[/SUP] Circuit in a 2-1 decision?????? You state that UPS got it back after that ruling... Do you know what year the money was returned to UPS?


However, the Court remanded the case to the Tax Court to determine the IRS� contention that UPS owed taxes under the laws relating to �reallocation� of revenues. Rather than submit that issue to trial, UPS agreed to settle that case in 2003 for $1.2 billion in back taxes, penalties and interest.


The UPS-IRS Battle Continues | Articles & Archives | Miscellaneous |

 

[mg5]

Hoax, Bottom line is did we lose money on OPL? I am pretty sure I did...

But that is changing thread from retirement. To respond to original post. When I was promoted I seem to remember being told your pension is second to your stock ownership, don't worry it's just a gravy kind of thing. Well that was wrong.

Some here assume that the company would revisit the pension.....WHY ? In light of how things have gone in the last 10 years or so. The bean counters have intentionally not done anything.

My take. GO when you can. I have had full time drivers who worked for me or I had been friends with when I was a full time driver who started with company after me and retired before me at 51 , 52 , 53 years old. In our district they have company benefits not teamsters, pay less in prescriptions and copays and some including some mechanics pension make more per month then we do. I know that is not everywhere but I was in the union and could have retired at 52 with benefits. Just a point.

So back to my point, leave as soon as you can, move on, ENJOY your life outside UPS without unneeded pressure and BS. Tinker, start business, help others or family and don't look back. We can not change it as active or retired employee and UPS is not going to change it. So if they will pay you to stay home with benefits DO IT !
Pay down your bills now. There is a good life after working.

 

[Catatonic]

Hoax, Bottom line is did we lose money on OPL? I am pretty sure I did...

As I stated earlier, I believe I lost around $50,000 (pre-tax) because of the IRS.
I hope UPS did too but it doesn't matter.

 

[upsoldtimer]

It's too bad that OPL came to an end. I had a manager who used to love saying...."UPS stock will make you wealthy, but OPL will make you rich!" And that surely would have been the case for many had it not been shut down baby.....

 

[ActionJaxson]

Who was the CEO of OPL during 1998 to 2000 ?

Scott Davis

 

[Catatonic]

Who was the CEO of OPL during 1998 to 2000 ?

Scott Davis

He did such a good job in that capacity he was made CEO of UPS.

To be fair, he was put in charge of OPL when it was decided to wind it down to a non-entity ... as it was expressed at that time "to dissolve it".

 

[beentheredonethat]

He did such a good job in that capacity he was made CEO of UPS.

To be fair, he was put in charge of OPL when it was decided to wind it down to a non-entity ... as it was expressed at that time "to dissolve it".

I hope that's not the idea for why they put him in charge of UPS this time... Short term, he is doing great for the company. Long term, I think he is hurting the mgmt which in turn will hurt the overall operations. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Catatonic]

I hope that's not the idea for why they put him in charge of UPS this time... Short term, he is doing great for the company. Long term, I think he is hurting the mgmt which in turn will hurt the overall operations. But that's just my opinion.

Logical opinion ... if true, UPS will adapt to recover.

 

[SignificantOwner]

I hope that's not the idea for why they put him in charge of UPS this time... Short term, he is doing great for the company. Long term, I think he is hurting the mgmt which in turn will hurt the overall operations. But that's just my opinion.

Sometimes I think he's doing us a favor. The stress level is much lower than it used to be because people don't care about work as much. We go to lunch and don't talk about work. I see people at meetings I haven't seen for a while and we don't talk about work. There are more people hugging each other at work than ever. Everyone seems to be leaving earlier. If it's not like this in your area then you should try it. It's kind of nice.