New GPS Time Study: What they are not telling you

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
I have a question about delivery location on the time study. I believe P-Man said the walk distance is calculated from the truck to the location where pkgs are signed for. I rarely stop complete at the actual delivery point as I punch the last name and complete the stop as I'm walking back (as per methods). Sometimes I stop complete almost back to the truck. Do we have the option of explaining where the actual delivery point is ( many of my stops are front door to the back room) or should I stand at the delivery point until I complete the stop? I just want a fair measurement of what I do. BM

The intent is to calculate the walk distance from the middle of the street to the delivery location. If you stop complete at the delivery location, you make their job easier and reduce the chance for inaccuracy. However, it is not required.

They can move both pushpins, so its not necessary that you are in the right place... The software calculates the distance between them, so assuming they put them in the right place, the accuracy is increased and done faster.

You can test this yourself. Go into Bing maps and click the option for "see your places". Its the "star" on the lower left of the screen. Then click the option for drawing a path. You can see the measurement.


My house has a walk distance of 44.9 feet. Of course the UPS software has many more features than the generic Bing software, but the concept is the same.

P-Man
 

stevetheupsguy

sʇǝʌǝʇɥǝndsƃnʎ
The intent is to calculate the walk distance from the middle of the street to the delivery location. If you stop complete at the delivery location, you make their job easier and reduce the chance for inaccuracy. However, it is not required.

They can move both pushpins, so its not necessary that you are in the right place... The software calculates the distance between them, so assuming they put them in the right place, the accuracy is increased and done faster.

You can test this yourself. Go into Bing maps and click the option for "see your places". Its the "star" on the lower left of the screen. Then click the option for drawing a path. You can see the measurement.


My house has a walk distance of 44.9 feet. Of course the UPS software has many more features than the generic Bing software, but the concept is the same.

P-Man
I hope this is because you have a zig zag walkway and not because you live in a palatial estate.:wink2:
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
Dude, I wish you could see me. I think that is total bull (no offence). I'm just that, 5' 100 lb. Been a driver for 16 years. For the most part size has nothing to do with being a UPS driver, but work ethic does. I am strong as a bull, physically fit and work hard every day. I have seen TONS on employees that are physical specimins that are lazy as sin.

Having said that, I'm my own worse enemy at times. I'm pretty much a model employee it pains me to say. I work hard every day, follow all methods, provide great customer service and make sure I never go out light. Problem is I often get taken advantage of and I know it. I never skip my break, but I'm not an overtime freak either and that is the problem. UPS can base you day more on quantity than quality. The doggers look better because they are willing to stay out as long as mgmt wants them too even when they don't accomplish what I do. My biggest downfall is that I want to go home.

Me thinks I'm going to get screwed on my time study (happening next week). I have a bulk run with lots of industrial. As I sweat it out all day trying to find my packages in my mangled mess of a load, ill lose time while a resi run with an employee that can smell the roses either doing long walks or pleasant 10 min. drive between stops will be better off. Should a high physical aspect count for anything?

Sorry to tell you this but routes like yours and mine...industry routes lost time per piece, as did mall routes. A driver who did our type of routes could go out with 60 stops and have 30 pickups and just by picking up and delivering a ton of pieces could scratch or even bonus these types of routes...well not any more. Routes like yours and mine on the delivery side bring down the stops per car and this is unacceptable to the center...even though your "physically" in most cases working and lifting heavier boxes and more of them. Do you think you get more "allowance" for lifting heavier boxes than someone who does a resi route with lighter parcels...ummm nope. You and I deliver more pieces than most routes and probably have loads that dont reflect the "proper use of all available space" inside the package cars, do you and I get any extra time for that, ummm thats a negative. When I bid the route I am on a few years back I could do 70 stops and had 30 pickups and run scratch or maybe a little +, - in either direction. Now I do more stops, more pickups and way more picked up and Im an hour over EVERYDAY, and no Im no slug...in fact I get plenty of help from my customers on NUMEROUS occasions throughout the day AND my customer interaction is very low IMO. The thing that makes me the maddest is I NEVER took time to sort out the car....NEVER when I first got on the route. Now were all told that pas makes it possible to not sort out the car, well guess what I never did anyway,but still got a hit from something that I never did. Im fine with it now, I thought about trying to get some sort of variance on the route but said forget it. It is what it is. You will probably loose time also, try to focus on just 2 things, customers and your safety. You are much more likely to get your back jacked or slip a disk than many other routes out there. As sleeve said "The time studies will never be fair nor representative of real-world, so why sweat it?" Its hard to understand this sometimes because you want to believe what your bosses tell you and you would like to think that a fortune 50 company would do the "right" thing but that doesnt always seem to be the case, and this goes for others companies besides ups. Work safe for yourself and your family, but also for ups so they can keep their insurance rates down...makes sense right?? If your concerned about your hours file a 9.5 grievance, if you dont your basically saying that you like the ot and its ok to put some more york on you...some people like 11 hours. Good luck and make good decisions...especially on routes like yours.
 

BlindSpot

New Member
Never has anyone so succintly described the facts about the UPS GHI (Global Harassment Initiative). SoberUps is spot-on!

The time and motion study is inaccurate regardless if an on-road supe is tailgating you to the front door (literally stepping upon your heals) or some keyboard & mouse operater is staring at google earth. BTW, Pass did not correct poor load and loop quality either.It did increase off area misloads though.

Yep, the Fordists at Big Brown are trying to coerce you into coming in early, working for free and skipping your lunch so as to enhance their portfolio. Accuracy and fairness are absent in their lexicon. Did I forget to mention the Key Fob penalty? Maybe later.
 

stink219

Well-Known Member
The only fair time study would be based on historical data while using the true calculation of work. Work=weight x distance. Ups uses this calculation to charge customers, but use stops to calculate our day. Seems unfair. 20 envelopes vs. 20 69 pound boxes elicits the same time allowance. Fair? I think not. But what if they used historical data from the last 2, 3, 5, 10 years? They told me it couldn't be done, I say codswallop!! My customers can tell me how many boxes they are getting, cost per box, weight, everything, but ups can't? Any thoughts?
 

CAFAL

Well-Known Member
I can honestly say since telematics that I do a hell of alot more walking. I scan and dr at delivery point because i know you can justify the distance from the truck. My numbers haven't changed. They are consistent. I believe.and have proven to myself that telematics works.
 

HULKAMANIA

Well-Known Member
P-Man you have spoke of this PDF time. I guarantee you that if you went from center to center in this country they would have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If that is a standard used by the company then the entire company should be taught this. Im not doubting what you say or trying to argue, but I know where I work if I mentioned PDF they would be like HUH what is that. Our dispatch team, on car sup, center manager, and dm ALL have these unrealistic expecations of what a certain planned day should be. We as drivers are SUPPOSE to KNOW how many hours we will take on a certain route. When we confront them about it and tell them look this is going to be a 10hr all they do is look at the computer and say OH its planned 8.8 or such and such. In my neck of the woods they seem to forget the miles between stops, the fact that we are REQUIRED to stop and take a 30 minute break. You can talk to them till you are blue in the face telling them you are going to have service failures if you follow the RULES and it does no good to tell them this.
 

CAFAL

Well-Known Member
How come supervisors code 02 (if they get stuck doing a route) in the D.I.A.D. when driver code is 06? Because it makes their day scratch no matter what......... Its the old "do as I say not as I do" routine. It is sad when they play games like that and harp on drivers over allowed.

It is not a guaranteed scratch. It actually leaves them off the report entirely
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
I did my own time study, I just multiplied the hours I work by my hourly rate and then factored in the O.T. booster. It's paying out like a slot machine.
 

What'dyabringmetoday???

Well-Known Member
Wouldn't it then make sense to do this virtual time study not just for one day but for 2-3 non consecutive delivery days to get a true sampling of the route?
We are almost on the same page here. BUT, why not just do it all the the time? I mean, they are pretty much doing that with telematics, so why not do this"virtual study" every day? Just sayin'...
 

Bubblehead

My Senior Picture
The only fair time study would be based on historical data while using the true calculation of work. Work=weight x distance. Ups uses this calculation to charge customers, but use stops to calculate our day. Seems unfair. 20 envelopes vs. 20 69 pound boxes elicits the same time allowance. Fair? I think not. But what if they used historical data from the last 2, 3, 5, 10 years? They told me it couldn't be done, I say codswallop!! My customers can tell me how many boxes they are getting, cost per box, weight, everything, but ups can't? Any thoughts?

An astute assessment.
If they did accurate, fairly derived time studies it would be much harder to harrass and coerce drivers into doing more work in less time.
 

Dracula

Package Car is cake compared to this...
The last time I looked, the average center gained time with this new study. In fact, did you say that you gained time? Am I remembering that wrong?

Your statement about the purpose of the time study is just as bad as the poor manager that thinks every driver is out to "screw" the company.

After 33 years, I know both statements to be false.

P-Man

The 'average' center?

I've never known of any center to gain time during the time studies. And I don't know if rigged is the right word, but I've had quite a few on-car sups tell me that there was no way we would gain time the way the studies were set up.

When I was a PC driver about 2 years ago, I was on a central city route that I could take my full lunch at noon, get off around 6 to 7PM and not run. I was a scratch driver on this route for the first time in 20 years of driving. After the time study, nothing changed. Nothing, except that my route, without changing, went from scratch to an hour-and-a- half over every single day. Literally, within two weeks, it went from, "good job", to "Why are you screwing us?"

IMO, it was a simple case of Corporate America being Corporate America.
 

Dracula

Package Car is cake compared to this...
First, as far as I know, the new tool DOES use multiple days of information.

Keep in mind that the new tool is only measuring walk distance. For residential deliveries, this is a large area for inaccuracy depending on the skill of the observer.

What the tool does is use satellite maps to see where you parked, and where the delivery location is. They mark both, and now they know the walk distance with much more accuracy.

You asked why not do a daily measurement.... There is not a way to know on a daily basis how far you walked to make a delivery..... They actually discussed using a pedometer, using a laser distance measurement, using ZIP+4 data, etc.

The method they chose reduces cost, increases accuracy, and is easily audited.

P-Man


What your statement doesn't take into account, is how every DR is fluid. According to your satellite, the proper DR is from the curb to the porch. According to UPS methods, a DR, "must not be seen from the street, a passer-by, or a neighbor". Remember, "Do it right, out of sight?" And in the real world, many proper DR's will go behind a bush, on a back porch, on the side of the house, in a garage, etc. No big deal, you say? Hogwash. If you get a residential route, all of the sudden, you are talking about a lot of piss-poor allowances. A driver on a route like this will lose a significant amount of time.

With a route with a lot of large, office buildings, which was the type of route I last had, waiting on freight elevators causes large delays. But your satellites, somehow, don't see that.

Imagine that.

In the middle of a city, during the day, traffic also causes delays that aren't taken in account.

One of the biggest discrepancies of package allowances is obvious only to a driver. My city route, I delivered to a big bank, and a large t-shirt company. Both places, I delivered about a 150 pieces. At the bank, I delivered a tote box of NDA letters. At the t-shirt company I delivered the same amount of 50 to 70 pound boxes of shirts. The bank delivery took 5 minutes, mainly from the walk to the mailroom. The t-shirt shop took about 30 minutes. the shirt boxes were always ground packages.

Take a guess which delivery got the better allowance.

Yep, I was told my bank allowance was 25 to 30 minutes. The 150 boxes of t-shirts had an allowance less than half of the time I spent muscling them off my truck. Many times I couldn't find all of them, causing a return trip later in the day, further torpedoing my time allowance.

This system only makes sense to someone sitting in a high office of I.E. Obviously, the allowances are mainly based on the revenue to the company, and not the time it takes to deliver the parcels.

Bottom line, UPS spent a hug amount of money on these systems to study time. And management always wants an immediate return on their investment. And no one in the chain of command is going to grow a pair and stand up and say, "People, this isn't accurate." It just doesn't work that way.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
P-Man you have spoke of this PDF time. I guarantee you that if you went from center to center in this country they would have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If that is a standard used by the company then the entire company should be taught this. Im not doubting what you say or trying to argue, but I know where I work if I mentioned PDF they would be like HUH what is that. Our dispatch team, on car sup, center manager, and dm ALL have these unrealistic expecations of what a certain planned day should be. We as drivers are SUPPOSE to KNOW how many hours we will take on a certain route. When we confront them about it and tell them look this is going to be a 10hr all they do is look at the computer and say OH its planned 8.8 or such and such. In my neck of the woods they seem to forget the miles between stops, the fact that we are REQUIRED to stop and take a 30 minute break. You can talk to them till you are blue in the face telling them you are going to have service failures if you follow the RULES and it does no good to tell them this.

I'm not sure if you are saying that I am wrong about PDF, or that UPS should do a better job of explaining how time studies, work measurement, and allowances work to its operators.

If you think I'm incorrect, then stop reading this. I have been time study certified long, long ago. I have one of the old coveted "blue" cards (now obsolete) that certified me to do original analysis. I know about the mechanics of PDF and how the systems work, and PDF is included.

If you are saying UPS does a poor job of explaining and teaching how the systems work to its operators, I fully agree. In the old days we used to do that. We used to have operators rotate for a year in IE so they know how allowances work.

We cut costs and lost the understanding we used to have. You are right that supervisors should not give the deer in the headlights look on the topic and should not blindly use the computer.

BTW, the planned day is assuming a proper job setup. If you got a bad load, you will be overallowed. It measures how the job should be and points out inefficiencies.

It should NOT be used to say a driver is doing a poor job. The driver may be doing the job correctly but was given a bad load.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
The 'average' center?

I've never known of any center to gain time during the time studies. And I don't know if rigged is the right word, but I've had quite a few on-car sups tell me that there was no way we would gain time the way the studies were set up.

When I was a PC driver about 2 years ago, I was on a central city route that I could take my full lunch at noon, get off around 6 to 7PM and not run. I was a scratch driver on this route for the first time in 20 years of driving. After the time study, nothing changed. Nothing, except that my route, without changing, went from scratch to an hour-and-a- half over every single day. Literally, within two weeks, it went from, "good job", to "Why are you screwing us?"

IMO, it was a simple case of Corporate America being Corporate America.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, the new GPS "Virtual" Time Study added time to the allowances.

Most centers, and most drivers gained time.

The facts are clear...... It's your choice if you want to believe it or not.
 
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