New GPS Time Study: What they are not telling you

soberups

Pees in the brown Koolaid
If in the situation you mention, the two routes have the same load quality, same quality of dispatch, same quality of trace, same amount of missorts, etc., then there is something wrong with the time study.

From my experience, those things I mentioned (which are out of the drivers' control) are the biggest factor in overallowed.

A manger that manages only by overallowed, is the problem....

P-Man

The issue, however, is that none of the problems you mention will ever be fixed.

Regardless of how wrong the timestudy might be, it is chiseled in stone. We are bound to the numbers, no matter how divorced from reality they are.

And a "manager that manages only by overallowed" might very well be the problem, but he is also the one who is going to get promoted; unfortunately, that knowledge does nothing for the driver that is being harassed and spending 10 hrs a day busting his ass on a route that is coming out as an underload on paper.

The flawed time allowance is a cancer, which managagement is more than happy to cure by applying the Band-Aid of the drivers skipped lunch to it.
 

tieguy

Banned
The issue, however, is that none of the problems you mention will ever be fixed.

Regardless of how wrong the timestudy might be, it is chiseled in stone. We are bound to the numbers, no matter how divorced from reality they are.

And a "manager that manages only by overallowed" might very well be the problem, but he is also the one who is going to get promoted; unfortunately, that knowledge does nothing for the driver that is being harassed and spending 10 hrs a day busting his ass on a route that is coming out as an underload on paper.

The flawed time allowance is a cancer, which managagement is more than happy to cure by applying the Band-Aid of the drivers skipped lunch to it.

If the timestudy process is flawed then does that also mean there are routes that are too generous in allowances?

Wouldnt it be logical to assume that an old timestudy would be the easiest to beat since development of the area over time leads to a tighter stop density?

this discussion about timestudys always leads to the theme that the company is screwing the driver but yet no one ever mentions the routes that are easy to score on.
 
If the timestudy process is flawed then does that also mean there are routes that are too generous in allowances?

Wouldnt it be logical to assume that an old timestudy would be the easiest to beat since development of the area over time leads to a tighter stop density?

this discussion about timestudys always leads to the theme that the company is screwing the driver but yet no one ever mentions the routes that are easy to score on.
Yes there are routes that are too "generous", but very few. I assure you the company makes up for them.

Not all areas develop over time, the industrial area closest to our center has changed a few business over the years (one goes under, another comes in). There hasn't been a new building built in 20 years. Superman couldn't run scratch on that route.

In our center, the "easy to score on" routes are maybe 1 in 15.
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
The only reason the company continues to harass you guys about being over allowed is because you allow it. Just listen, tell them your doing your best, and go out and follow the methods. You will not be disciplined for being over allowed. You will be for methods violations. If a sup statrs making you feel uncomfortable with the way he is talking to you, ask for a steward before he says anything else to you, don't be argumentative or beligerant, be respectful and nice, don't take it personally, your not the only one being treated this way. If they see it's getting under your skin it will only get worse. Unfortunately UPS management philosophy seems to be the madder we make them the harder they work. NEVER LET THEM SEE YOU SWEAT!!!!!
 

brownrod

Well-Known Member
If the timestudy process is flawed then does that also mean there are routes that are too generous in allowances?

Wouldnt it be logical to assume that an old timestudy would be the easiest to beat since development of the area over time leads to a tighter stop density?


You are absolutely correct. Our time studies are ancient and we have one such route in our building. When time studied there was nothing in that area. Now there is high density residential. Drivers beat the route and come in 3-4 hours under. And management is happy because it makes them look good.

The vast majority of our routes are the opposite. It's common to be 1-2 hours over and management doesn't even say a word. 3-4 hours over and management wants to know what the hell you are doing out there.
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
The issue, however, is that none of the problems you mention will ever be fixed.

Regardless of how wrong the timestudy might be, it is chiseled in stone. We are bound to the numbers, no matter how divorced from reality they are.

And a "manager that manages only by overallowed" might very well be the problem, but he is also the one who is going to get promoted; unfortunately, that knowledge does nothing for the driver that is being harassed and spending 10 hrs a day busting his ass on a route that is coming out as an underload on paper.

The flawed time allowance is a cancer, which managagement is more than happy to cure by applying the Band-Aid of the drivers skipped lunch to it.

Its convenient to believe and assert that management that only cares about over allowed are the ones that will get promoted.

I have been promoted a few times myself, have promoted many people, and worked with too many good managers who were promoted to believe that they are single dimensional people. Overallowed is important, but just one of many areas of priority.

Do poor time studies exist? Sure. They must. Are they impossible to change? No, but I agree its not easy. However, you set the stage to imply that this is the rule and that rule is purposeful. This is not the case.

I have said before, that work measurement is a measurement of the job, not necessarily the employee. I have personally used work measurement to make operational changes, and I do it all the time. In general, overallowed is a good gauge of center effectiveness. Improving the operation has consistently led to less overallowed in all operations I have worked in.

This is what it's meant to do, and it works well for that. I have been consistent in this assertion. No system is perfect, and flaws will go along with the territory for any one. You are exaggerating those flaws.

P-Man
 

browned out

Well-Known Member
Seems like you would be quicker then a cover driver since you know the route so much better then he/she does?


Not really; the cover drivers don't have any relationships with the customers. They just drop and run and skip lunches and breaks, bad drs, misdeliveries, etc. The relationships that drivers build with their customers generate alot of volume and much more positive word of mouth than the few minutes saved or customer discourtesy could ever justify.
 

browniehound

Well-Known Member
Time allowed for folding in the mirror: none.
Time allowed for putting out a cone; none.
Time allowed for putting the package in a bag to keep it dry; none.
Time allowed for locating an out-of-sight, dry location to release package; none.
Time allowed for walking around the car to make sure the kid you saw behind you isnt hiding someplace; none.
Time allowed for getting out to check clearance when forced to back up in an unfamiliar location; none.
Time allowed for going back to change the delivery notices you left at 4 different apartments because you tried to indirect and the manager was out to lunch; none.
Time allowed for making 3 indirect delivery attempts on a signature required package; none.
Time allowed for making 2 or 3 dozen 8-point turnarounds because your non-power steering pkg car has the turning radius of an aircraft carrier; none.
Time allowed for driving 5 miles uphill in 2nd gear at 11 MPH because your non power-steering pkg car is so underpowered that it cant get out of its own way; none.
Time allowed for bagging smalls; none.
Time allowed for correcting invoice errors on an international shipment; none.
Time allowed for applying highlight tape to all 6 sides of an over-70 lb package; none.
Time allowed for waiting for a customer to fill out ASD's and waybills for an on-call air; none.
Time allowed for waiting for a customer to finish printing the online end-of-day report to scan; none.
Time allowed for sorting and re-handling the 40 stops that you are sent to take off of an overdispatched driver; none.
Time allowed for looking in a map book in an unfamiliar area; none.
Time allowed for verifying the address on a house that doesnt have a visible number; none.
Time allowed for sorting your load when preload forces 400 packages into your P-800; none.
Time allowed for reading and responding to text messages in the DIAD from the center; none.

In I.E. world, none of these things are necessary so there is no need to allow any time for them.
In I.E. world, all the allowances are fair and realistic, and every day is sunshine and lollypops.

Isnt I.E. world a lovely place?


Time to construct and read this post with the knowlege no regard or action will be taken: TOO LONG

Sorry Sober, why are you wasting your time? It is what it is. Nothing you say will change it.

In 11 years the sup. commented on my overallowance about 5 times. I can live with that. Its water on the back of the duck to me...
 

browniehound

Well-Known Member
What I was told is the walk distance is measured by the GPS, has nothing to do with when scanned or stop completed. Originally I thought it measured to the stop complete location, but I was told yhat is not the case.

P man??

Hey P man,
If this is the case then I think UPS should study the route over a 5 day period. This way every stop will be covered. In the past, the driver and the company got the luck of the draw of long walks or short walks.

Now that the company has the technology I think they should focus on more accurate time studies. These studies can be more accurate than ever if UPS wants to put the effort in. For example, in the past I remember a house's distance from the package car divided into 3 catagories: short, medium, and long walks. After a certain distance the "long walk" can be 4X that and still given the same allowance.

Now, I notice the GPS in DIAD IV is so sensitive it can distguish between a few steps. Don't believe me? Next time you have time to kill, choose # 8 or # 9 (not sure which one) from the communications menu. There is no title for these #'s but you can enter 8 or 9 and you GPS location will appear and its accurate to about 8 decimal places. I'm not sure excatly the decimal places but it looks something like this 43.71623456 N. Walk a few steps and re-new the screen and the number will change. I've tried it, its that accurate. Anyone else try this before??
 

CharleyHustle

Well-Known Member
I think they should focus on more accurate time studies.

For the life of me I can't figure out why any driver would want more accurate time studies. With more accuracy the boss is just going to hold you MORE accountable. There would be less leeway to have a "bad" day. Believe me, for every long walk not counted on your time study, there are 5-10 walks that are shorter than what was studied. I have the same opinion of people who want "credit" for everything. "I do this, that and walk here, there", "had to go back here, couldn't get in there", no thanks. The more "credit" you take, the more that is expected of you.
 

NHDRVR

Well-Known Member
As many of you know, the new time studies are being phased in thru out the country. They are GPS based using DIAD info you keyed in. No problem you are thinking, but they are using stats from a Ballbusting brown noser(one whos runs, jumps, speeds, cheats, cut corners and skips lunch) done on a day you had off, vacation, etc. When a sup reviewed your stops with you for this new time study, did you notice whose name was at the top. Hopefully it was you. Demand to review this because this could affect you finacially and with performance warning letters. This is a slick attempt to screw drivers! Most sups will tell you they do not know how this new time study works(acting dumb) :angry:

If you are doing your job the right way ( and I'm not saying you aren't) this has no effect on any of us. It may give an On-road a reason to throw a comment or 2 at you but it won't change how I do things... Be safe and thorough and the rest will take care of itself
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Hey P man,
If this is the case then I think UPS should study the route over a 5 day period. This way every stop will be covered. In the past, the driver and the company got the luck of the draw of long walks or short walks.

Now that the company has the technology I think they should focus on more accurate time studies. These studies can be more accurate than ever if UPS wants to put the effort in. For example, in the past I remember a house's distance from the package car divided into 3 catagories: short, medium, and long walks. After a certain distance the "long walk" can be 4X that and still given the same allowance.

Now, I notice the GPS in DIAD IV is so sensitive it can distguish between a few steps. Don't believe me? Next time you have time to kill, choose # 8 or # 9 (not sure which one) from the communications menu. There is no title for these #'s but you can enter 8 or 9 and you GPS location will appear and its accurate to about 8 decimal places. I'm not sure excatly the decimal places but it looks something like this 43.71623456 N. Walk a few steps and re-new the screen and the number will change. I've tried it, its that accurate. Anyone else try this before??

Brownie,

I think they are actually doing what you say... I'm not 100% sure because my informaiton is what I remember from a corporate presentation and speaking to IE people (both corporate and local)

They have the ability to bring in one or many days from one or more drivers. Remember, they are not studying a route, but an area, so getting all the drivers that deliver is important and multiple days also helps.

You are right.... In the old days, walk distance was classified by a range of distance. This was because we didn't have computers to calculate the time study or the technology to more precisely determine the distance. This classification system stayed even as computers became available.

With the new program, they use a combination of the DIAD GPS and Satellite Imagery to determine walk distance for each stop individually. Another plus of this program (as I recall) is that once an address is studied, the data is saved. This is both for future studies and for auditing. This means that each time study done increases the coverage of the studied area.

From what I saw, the system looked great. I don't know what IE's policy is on this, but I would openly show each driver how it works so that the mystery would be eliminated.

Your ideas were good. Maybe you could ask IE to show you the system? You may come up with other thoughts that improve the process.

P-Man
 

hellfire

no one considers UPS people."real" Teamsters.-BUG
do the new basic pkgs give us less of a time allowance , as the co. pays no claims and can be dr'd anywhere? also,,lets no forget senority people, certain routes have better allowances,, bid them
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
do the new basic pkgs give us less of a time allowance , as the co. pays no claims and can be dr'd anywhere? also,,lets no forget senority people, certain routes have better allowances,, bid them

Delivering Basic packages still requires you to walk to the same delivery point, sheet and then release the pkg the same as you would for any other package, so I would think that the time allowance would be the same. Time allowance has never been one of the factors that I have considered when either bidding a new area or staying on my current area.
 

Brownnblue

Well-Known Member
You don't know how it works, but you are sure that its skewed in the company's favor. In fact you believe that is due to a conspiracy.

You don't know how much time PDF adds, but you are sure it does not account for what you do.

You say that time studies generate the dispatch, but they do not.

Lots of drivers are scratch or underallowed. Lots of time studies have been updated and give drivers more time. (yours included).

You say that they are used to evaluate drivers. You are correct there... I agree that time studies alone should not be used to evaluate a driver's performance. I have consistently said that.

Its not a 100% perfect system. No system in existence is. It is not random as you assert. There is a library in Atlanta where the backup for every allowance is kept. I've seen it. There are video tapes where the allowances were drawn from. There are fine people with high integrity that develop and maintain those allowances.

Just because you want to believe that allowances are the result of an evil empire does not make it so.

I wonder if the union ever asked to be taught how time studies worked and see the process? I wonder what UPS would say. I am all for that transparency. I don't think ignorance is bliss.

P-Man
Why doesn't the company take the initiative and show the Union how it works? Why doesn't the company show the drivers how it works? In one post your saying that it is 95% correct 95% of the time, given that kind of figure I again ask if this thing is the fair, honest, bastion of scientific accuracy that you make it out to be, then why can't we see the equation?

One could very easily boil all of your posts about this subject to two simple words: "trust me".
 

Brownnblue

Well-Known Member
Since you are an expert on how time studies work, why then is PDF (Personal, Delay, and Fatigue) added? Is the time for the items you mentioned larger than the PDF the TSO adds?

P-Man
When a driver gets more work because he/she is faster and more competent, does the PDF go up? You think it would, since there is a greater chance of personal issues, delays, and (without question) fatigue. Or is there some type of logarithmic effect to the equation that gives the driver less credit for more work performed?

Guess I'll just have to "trust you".
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
Why doesn't the company take the initiative and show the Union how it works? Why doesn't the company show the drivers how it works? In one post your saying that it is 95% correct 95% of the time, given that kind of figure I again ask if this thing is the fair, honest, bastion of scientific accuracy that you make it out to be, then why can't we see the equation?

One could very easily boil all of your posts about this subject to two simple words: "trust me".[/QUOTE]

If "trust me" is the message you got, that was not my intent.

My message is "learn the facts".

I 100% agree that the union should learn ALL the facts around time study. If you read all my posts on this, I have said that the new program is great because the results are easily audited. I have also said to go ask I.E. to show you the system.

If the company has asked the union to see this, I do not know.

When I was a district I.E. (long ago) I did show the union how work measurement worked. I had discussions regularly with the B.A. I absolutely believe in showing the facts.

You aske about scientific accuracy. Work measurement was not invented by UPS. If you check out http://www.iie.org/ you can learn about some of the science behind work measurement. IIE has over 26,000 members worldwide.

I have also said that work measurement is meant to measure a job, not a person. I think UPS inappropriately uses some of these concepts. For instance, if a driver has a bad load, bad trace, bad dispatch, etc, the driver will be overallowed and hot his / her fault.

I'm giving facts. Many here do not want to hear the facts and will live by their opinion only. I do not know if you are one of them.

I am glad to share facts any time.

P-Man
 

pretzel_man

Well-Known Member
When a driver gets more work because he/she is faster and more competent, does the PDF go up? You think it would, since there is a greater chance of personal issues, delays, and (without question) fatigue. Or is there some type of logarithmic effect to the equation that gives the driver less credit for more work performed?

Guess I'll just have to "trust you".

I'm not sure I totally understand the question. PDF is added to the original calculated time (by corporate I.E.) for things not accounted for in the work measurement. Its just a chunk of additional time for "Personal, Dealy, and Fatigue". Its not specific to any driver so it does not change with planned day.

There is no special addative (or take away) for the size of the dispatch.

Now you know that answer.

P-Man
 

LagunaBrown

Well-Known Member
Ok.... What make you think they use G.P.S. for your walks or whatever? I would love to hear how they do it because I call B.S. Unless you can show me different they just changed the allowance....Period. You are giving them too much credit, there is nothing virtual about it....... All I hear is nonsense because nobody really knows the equation, just show me on paper how you account for class 4 G.P.S. walks and we can start from there.
 
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