Operation gun runner, fast and furious
- Thread starter toonertoo
- Start date
Babagounj
Strength through joy
And the Mexican Government would like those US officials who authorized this stupid idea tried in Mexico.
Here's a nice idea; since they will now allow Mexican trucks to drive in the USA, why not have a few head right up to DC and start loading them up with all the guilty parties.
Here's a nice idea; since they will now allow Mexican trucks to drive in the USA, why not have a few head right up to DC and start loading them up with all the guilty parties.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
First off, good find Tooner. But let's back away for the moment and pose this question. As a private person working with a larger group of private persons, what would we need to do if we want to send guns to Mexico and then track them. Very generally speaking, we'd need a certain amount of guns that we could track and locate. Now a gun in the realm of James Bond where you follow it on screen from the car (the little beep) seems a bit far fetched but obviously some unique identifier would come into play. To do this, I can't see the need for $10mil must less $15 or $40 mil.
But even greater is the deeper moral question. If you believe certain persons are evil, would do mortal harm to innocent persons, how could you in the name of law enforcement, put the actual means to do harm in their hands? Would the public condone giving Charles Manson a knife on the premise to determine what he would do and how would he act if he got one? Granted, law enforcement would learn in observing him, science I'm sure would learn more about the human mind but is that the right way to go about it?
I think the US Gov't has dumped way more guns into Mexico than we even realize as several years ago when the allegations of guns in Mexico were coming from American gunstores, there were claims that the guns spoke of were in fact coming into the drug world via rotten Mexican military who were on the take and their gunsources were in fact the US Gov't under the good neighbor policy. When a large cach of weapons were seized in various raids and law enforcement actions, several gunowner advocacy groups asked to obtain the weapon serial number and then back trace to the source which seems very reasonable. If a gun store is doing this, shut em' down. However both the Mexican and US gov't strongly opposed public disclosure of weapon serial numbers at all levels but the question is why?
I think Project Gunrunner is just the tip of a very, very dirty iceburg. If we would sell weapons and even WMD capability to Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 1980's to support him in his war with Iran, is it that farfetched to think out gov't or persons within out gov't for self interest reasons would not sell guns to Mexican drug gangs? And while you are at it, sometime google "CIA DRUGS" and just watch where that search will lead you!
Babagounj
Strength through joy
Mexican police released a videotaped interview of Jesus Enrique Rejon Aguilar, in which the recently captured No. 3 leader of the Los Zetas drug cartel said “all the weapons” the Zetas use were “bought in the United States” and that “even the American government itself was selling the weapons.”
wkmac
Well-Known Member
brett636
Well-Known Member
I believe there was more sinister motivations behind this little debacle. The Obama administration is heavily anti-gun, and would love to get some strong gun control measures put in place, but it doesn't have the support from the public and thus the congress to get it done. So they came up with this little scheme hoping to help increase the number of U.S. originated weapons into the hands of drug cartel thugs in hopes they could then come back and say "See, we need more gun control otherwise this is just going to get worse!" Its just an attempt to worsen a problem to push ahead a political agenda, and this isn't the first time the Obama administration has done this. Whoever is connected to this program in the upper ranks of the ATF need to be charged with an accessory to murder considering two U.S. agents were killed by these weapons. Now is a good time to put out the message that putting Americans directly at risk to push a domestic political agenda is not tolerated.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
Brett,
I won't disagree somewhat with the motive at heart which you describe but to blame Obama solely for Project Gunrunner would be incorrect.
From the US Dept. of Justice Working Draft Report on Project Gunrunner dated Sept. 2010' you'll find the following under the Executive Summary:
If you are going to ascribe such a standard to Obama and question his motive, and rightly so, you should be consistent and hold the same standard to President Bush and question his motive. Of even greater interest is the fact it began in his home state. If some nefarious motive is assigned to Obama then let's be honest and hold him accountable only to the level that he continued another Bush policy!
With President Obama running Bush policy after Bush policy and thus Obama is a socialist, what does that make Bush and those who voted for Bush?
I'm just sayin'..........
brett636
Well-Known Member
Brett,
I won't disagree somewhat with the motive at heart which you describe but to blame Obama solely for Project Gunrunner would be incorrect.
From the US Dept. of Justice Working Draft Report on Project Gunrunner dated Sept. 2010' you'll find the following under the Executive Summary:
If you are going to ascribe such a standard to Obama and question his motive, and rightly so, you should be consistent and hold the same standard to President Bush and question his motive. Of even greater interest is the fact it began in his home state. If some nefarious motive is assigned to Obama then let's be honest and hold him accountable only to the level that he continued another Bush policy!
With President Obama running Bush policy after Bush policy and thus Obama is a socialist, what does that make Bush and those who voted for Bush?
I'm just sayin'..........[/QUOTE]
I'm certain that programs like these are floated all the time by different government agencies. Especially those involved in law enforcement. It is the administration's perogative whether to fund it or not. The stimulus law signed by president Obama in 2009 included $10 million in funding for the fast and furious program telling me it was a priority of this administration by which I am not totally surprised.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
You may be giving Obama a break on the actual numbers. On page 19 of the Project Gunrunner Report you'll find the following numbers as it pertains to taxpayer funding.
Looks to me the $10 mil you spoke of was just from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act but other supplemental dollars were built in elsewhere for a much high total amount of taxpayer dollars set aside. From another POV, that same amount of money for Project Gunrunner, how much medical care for the underclass would that have paid for? Food for the starving? Extending unemployment benefits?
I'm just sayin'.....
Babagounj
Strength through joy
–Former Deputy Attorney General David Ogden
–Deputy Attorney General James Cole
–Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General Kenneth Blanco
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Keeney
–Associate Deputy Attorney General Matt Axelrod
–Former Associate Deputy Attorney General Ed Siskel
–Gary Grindler in the Office of the Attorney General
–Brad Smith, in the office of the Deputy Attorney General
–Kevin Carwile, section chief of the Capital Case Unit
–Joseph Cooley, in the Criminal Fraud Section
–Deputy Attorney General James Cole
–Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General Kenneth Blanco
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General Jason Weinstein
–Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Keeney
–Associate Deputy Attorney General Matt Axelrod
–Former Associate Deputy Attorney General Ed Siskel
–Gary Grindler in the Office of the Attorney General
–Brad Smith, in the office of the Deputy Attorney General
–Kevin Carwile, section chief of the Capital Case Unit
–Joseph Cooley, in the Criminal Fraud Section
Babagounj
Strength through joy
(CNN) — Federal agents can’t account for more than 1,400 guns after a widely criticized operation aimed at tracing the flow of weapons to Mexican drug gangs, sources with knowledge of the investigation tell CNN.
Of 2,020 guns involved in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives probe dubbed “Operation Fast and Furious,” 363 have been recovered in the United States and 227 have been recovered in Mexico. That leaves 1,430 guns unaccounted for, the sources said.
The problem was that once the guns were allowed to “walk,” there was no way to recover them until they turned up at crime scenes. The operation has been widely criticized in Congress, with the chairman of a House committee that investigated the issue calling it “felony stupid.”
Of 2,020 guns involved in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives probe dubbed “Operation Fast and Furious,” 363 have been recovered in the United States and 227 have been recovered in Mexico. That leaves 1,430 guns unaccounted for, the sources said.
The problem was that once the guns were allowed to “walk,” there was no way to recover them until they turned up at crime scenes. The operation has been widely criticized in Congress, with the chairman of a House committee that investigated the issue calling it “felony stupid.”
Babagounj
Strength through joy
(Daily Caller) — Republican lawmakers are alleging that Operation Fast and Furious may have had a twin in Tampa: Operation Castaway.
The new revelations have come to light as Florida Republican Rep. Gus Bilrakis fired off a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder and acting ATF Director Ken Melson asking them for answers about the newly discovered program.
“In recent days, it has come to light that the ATF and DOJ have participated in the act of ‘gun walking’ beyond the acts conducted within the scope of ‘Operation Fast and Furious,’” Bilrakis wrote to Holder and Melson.
“Recent reports have suggested that Project Gunrunner may not have been limited to weapons trafficking to Mexico and that similar programs included the possible trafficking of arms to criminal gangs in Honduras with the knowledge of the ATF’s Tampa Field Division and the Department of Justice’s Middle District of Florida through an operation known as ‘Operation Castaway,’” the letter read.
Another fine mess.
The new revelations have come to light as Florida Republican Rep. Gus Bilrakis fired off a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder and acting ATF Director Ken Melson asking them for answers about the newly discovered program.
“In recent days, it has come to light that the ATF and DOJ have participated in the act of ‘gun walking’ beyond the acts conducted within the scope of ‘Operation Fast and Furious,’” Bilrakis wrote to Holder and Melson.
“Recent reports have suggested that Project Gunrunner may not have been limited to weapons trafficking to Mexico and that similar programs included the possible trafficking of arms to criminal gangs in Honduras with the knowledge of the ATF’s Tampa Field Division and the Department of Justice’s Middle District of Florida through an operation known as ‘Operation Castaway,’” the letter read.
Another fine mess.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
trplnkl
555
What do you suggest as a prescription for this?
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