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Pension Agency Faces a New Front
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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 54895"><p>ok2bc,</p><p>I don't think it's so much the nuances but rather this issue has been discussed over several threads with responses coming over a period of time. Sometimes it is hard to keep up and not get lost on a person's point of view. Had we all been sitting around a big table with a good cup of coffee then I'm sure within less than 5 minutes your point would have been completely understood. </p><p></p><p>Having had many conversations with you on this subject I too have come to better understand your point and appreciate where you are coming from. It took some time granted, not your fault but mine, but now that I understand, you do have a very valid point. I do think instead of nuances we all need to lay it out like it is.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Neither side union or company IMO can be trusted. They both have a vested interest in themselves. Both will use accounting tricks and legal flips to sell you a picture that benefits them and them alone.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Most all UPSers have in some form been hit by the pension problem. Most worse than others. In all cases of the pension problem facing UPSers, the pension funds are apart of a multi-employer plan.</p><p></p><p>Fact: There are a handfull of pension funds in great shape with great benefits and a few are union, maybe even multi-employer plans and some are strictly UPS plans covered by contract.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Single Employer plans have a far larger failure rate than multi-employer plans and mutli-employer plans "CAN" provide a great safety net for the workers especially when trouble hits. In fact, the major concerns in Congress right now for pension plans is focus on the single plans and not so much the multi. They are not being left out as they know there are concerns but the great problem is the single plans.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Union leadership has in the past done some not so proper things with some retirement plan's monies. Now this must be understood that to my knowledge this was past not so much recent past or even present but the fact is our money was used in improper ways. Not saying this caused us to be where we are but it ain't helping none either.</p><p></p><p>Fact: TDU did a study and their findings showed a max benefit for 30 years service should be about $700 less per month than what was being paid out prior to the 2003' benefit cuts. I'm not a fan of TDU as they to have a vested interest that I don't believe is genuine but I do believe their numbers are probably nearer to being right than anything else.</p><p></p><p>Fact: In a UPS only plan you could get a higher rate of return and payout a higher benefit but that's because of the demographics. If not run right in 20 to 30 years you could be facing a far worse picture than you are right now.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Any plan that moves current workers from a MEPP to a SEPP covered exclusively by and for UPS workers does not include present retirees and all current workers vested service prior to creation of new UPS plan will not be covered. Even the current plan proposed by APWA does not cover prior service and that's a fact. Go to a new system and you ill draw 2 retirement checks instead of 1 as one will come from a MEPP and the other from a SEPP. It's possible and likely that going to a SEPP will bankrupt the MEPP and you will be at the gov't insurance plans mercy.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Companies on a broad scale have not paid the proper insurance premiums for the pension insurance coverage run by the gov't. This is why the pension insurance plan is in far worse shape than thought.</p><p></p><p>Fact: Medical costs are through the roof and this more than any other has had the impact on the pension system. Remember, our pension payments not only pay for retirement but also our medical coverage in retirement. </p><p></p><p>Fact: UPS does have a trustee on the CS pension board but from my understanding this has come about only over the last 10 years and I was told happen after the events of 1997'. If the timeframe doesn't fit the facts I'd appreciate clarification to correct that point.</p><p></p><p>Fact: UPS does present a sweet picture to Congress on what it could do if they had exclusive control of the money but what they don't tell you is that is the picture from the time they take control forward. Whatever employees have earned in the past is not covered and we all start at the bottom on day 1 of the plan.</p><p></p><p>Are there more? Sure and some I've not even considered that you guys know but the bottom line is most of us have been bitten by the pension impact and major lifestyle decisons had to be altered with some massively altered. Right now we are much like a patient who has just learned we have a deadly disease and our own doctors have missed it time and time again. It's was our own choosen doctors that we trusted and who told us "I'm looking out for you and you alone!" That trust has not only been violated but grossly shaken to it's core. At the same time here's another doctor who has said he has the cure and yes in some ways it will keep you from dying but there are side effects. Our dilemma is do we stick with the same doctor who got us where we are or do we go with this new doctor who has a cure but massive side effects. </p><p></p><p>Your choice? And many of us are considering taking that chioce, is like deciding whether to be bitten by a Rattlesnake or a Cobra. Many like myself see the union now as Cobra and the company a rattlesnake mostly because the trust has been broken and the belief that it's not repairable. Yes, the company is a rattlesnake and can inflict pain and death but the union is now in many quarters seen the bad guy and the company "with mask" riding the white horse to save the day. The mask is to hide it's true face. In the end whether we stay where we are or go elsewhere there will be pain and suffering and I believe we will stay with CS and the other plans and sometime in the future the house of cards will collapse and we will be left with nothing. I honstly and firmly believe that. With UPS because of the demographics I believe it's possible for this not to happen but there are other factors that come into play that could change that. This is also why I firmly believe that the best scenario is to get the money up front and walk away. It's not my fault if you believe that most of the folks out there can't handle their money and it's probably true but then are you going to insist then that because they can't handle money we all place our money into a large fund, UPS Hourly Employee Rent, Light and Food bill Fund, and from that all our rent, house payments, groceries, utilities and car payments are made as well? How far do we go before we make the individual responsible for themselves? I know this is falling on deaf ears but I won't stop raising this point because I'm tired of living on another man's plantation. </p><p></p><p>You trust the Death Star, I want to destory it!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 54895"] ok2bc, I don't think it's so much the nuances but rather this issue has been discussed over several threads with responses coming over a period of time. Sometimes it is hard to keep up and not get lost on a person's point of view. Had we all been sitting around a big table with a good cup of coffee then I'm sure within less than 5 minutes your point would have been completely understood. Having had many conversations with you on this subject I too have come to better understand your point and appreciate where you are coming from. It took some time granted, not your fault but mine, but now that I understand, you do have a very valid point. I do think instead of nuances we all need to lay it out like it is. Fact: Neither side union or company IMO can be trusted. They both have a vested interest in themselves. Both will use accounting tricks and legal flips to sell you a picture that benefits them and them alone. Fact: Most all UPSers have in some form been hit by the pension problem. Most worse than others. In all cases of the pension problem facing UPSers, the pension funds are apart of a multi-employer plan. Fact: There are a handfull of pension funds in great shape with great benefits and a few are union, maybe even multi-employer plans and some are strictly UPS plans covered by contract. Fact: Single Employer plans have a far larger failure rate than multi-employer plans and mutli-employer plans "CAN" provide a great safety net for the workers especially when trouble hits. In fact, the major concerns in Congress right now for pension plans is focus on the single plans and not so much the multi. They are not being left out as they know there are concerns but the great problem is the single plans. Fact: Union leadership has in the past done some not so proper things with some retirement plan's monies. Now this must be understood that to my knowledge this was past not so much recent past or even present but the fact is our money was used in improper ways. Not saying this caused us to be where we are but it ain't helping none either. Fact: TDU did a study and their findings showed a max benefit for 30 years service should be about $700 less per month than what was being paid out prior to the 2003' benefit cuts. I'm not a fan of TDU as they to have a vested interest that I don't believe is genuine but I do believe their numbers are probably nearer to being right than anything else. Fact: In a UPS only plan you could get a higher rate of return and payout a higher benefit but that's because of the demographics. If not run right in 20 to 30 years you could be facing a far worse picture than you are right now. Fact: Any plan that moves current workers from a MEPP to a SEPP covered exclusively by and for UPS workers does not include present retirees and all current workers vested service prior to creation of new UPS plan will not be covered. Even the current plan proposed by APWA does not cover prior service and that's a fact. Go to a new system and you ill draw 2 retirement checks instead of 1 as one will come from a MEPP and the other from a SEPP. It's possible and likely that going to a SEPP will bankrupt the MEPP and you will be at the gov't insurance plans mercy. Fact: Companies on a broad scale have not paid the proper insurance premiums for the pension insurance coverage run by the gov't. This is why the pension insurance plan is in far worse shape than thought. Fact: Medical costs are through the roof and this more than any other has had the impact on the pension system. Remember, our pension payments not only pay for retirement but also our medical coverage in retirement. Fact: UPS does have a trustee on the CS pension board but from my understanding this has come about only over the last 10 years and I was told happen after the events of 1997'. If the timeframe doesn't fit the facts I'd appreciate clarification to correct that point. Fact: UPS does present a sweet picture to Congress on what it could do if they had exclusive control of the money but what they don't tell you is that is the picture from the time they take control forward. Whatever employees have earned in the past is not covered and we all start at the bottom on day 1 of the plan. Are there more? Sure and some I've not even considered that you guys know but the bottom line is most of us have been bitten by the pension impact and major lifestyle decisons had to be altered with some massively altered. Right now we are much like a patient who has just learned we have a deadly disease and our own doctors have missed it time and time again. It's was our own choosen doctors that we trusted and who told us "I'm looking out for you and you alone!" That trust has not only been violated but grossly shaken to it's core. At the same time here's another doctor who has said he has the cure and yes in some ways it will keep you from dying but there are side effects. Our dilemma is do we stick with the same doctor who got us where we are or do we go with this new doctor who has a cure but massive side effects. Your choice? And many of us are considering taking that chioce, is like deciding whether to be bitten by a Rattlesnake or a Cobra. Many like myself see the union now as Cobra and the company a rattlesnake mostly because the trust has been broken and the belief that it's not repairable. Yes, the company is a rattlesnake and can inflict pain and death but the union is now in many quarters seen the bad guy and the company "with mask" riding the white horse to save the day. The mask is to hide it's true face. In the end whether we stay where we are or go elsewhere there will be pain and suffering and I believe we will stay with CS and the other plans and sometime in the future the house of cards will collapse and we will be left with nothing. I honstly and firmly believe that. With UPS because of the demographics I believe it's possible for this not to happen but there are other factors that come into play that could change that. This is also why I firmly believe that the best scenario is to get the money up front and walk away. It's not my fault if you believe that most of the folks out there can't handle their money and it's probably true but then are you going to insist then that because they can't handle money we all place our money into a large fund, UPS Hourly Employee Rent, Light and Food bill Fund, and from that all our rent, house payments, groceries, utilities and car payments are made as well? How far do we go before we make the individual responsible for themselves? I know this is falling on deaf ears but I won't stop raising this point because I'm tired of living on another man's plantation. You trust the Death Star, I want to destory it! [/QUOTE]
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