Police Brutality & Executions

Babagounj

Strength through joy
Thomaston Man Arrested After Stabbing Watermelon: Cops
A 49-year-old Connecticut man has been charged with threatening after his wife told police he stabbed and carved a watermelon in a passive-aggressive manner.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
What is your opinion of that situation partially created by a liberal mayor (not a conservative) pushing the police to crack down on people trying to evade the NYC cigarette taxes?
I think that if the police can respectfully arrest Bernie Madoff without killing him, surely Eric Gardner should be afforded the same courtesy.
 

oldngray

nowhere special
I think that if the police can respectfully arrest Bernie Madoff without killing him, surely Eric Gardner should be afforded the same courtesy.

I still don't understand exactly what happened in the Gardner case. My first impression was surprise at the grand jury verdict but maybe there was more evidence not reported by the media. Gardner should not have resisted arrest (which I seriously doubt Madoff would ever even attempt to do). I do think the fact that the police were instructed to crack down on the cigarette sellers like Gardner was the initial spark and it escalated from there. And he died an hour later from heart failure, not from the choke hold. With his health he might have died if the police had just tasered him but that will never be known. Madoff also would have known he would go to a country club prison so he would have less incentive to resist but that is another issue.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
I still don't understand exactly what happened in the Gardner case. My first impression was surprise at the grand jury verdict but maybe there was more evidence not reported by the media. Gardner should not have resisted arrest (which I seriously doubt Madoff would ever even attempt to do). I do think the fact that the police were instructed to crack down on the cigarette sellers like Gardner was the initial spark and it escalated from there. And he died an hour later from heart failure, not from the choke hold. With his health he might have died if the police had just tasered him but that will never be known. Madoff also would have known he would go to a country club prison so he would have less incentive to resist but that is another issue.
The coroner ruled the death a homicide. Health concerns notwithstanding, that was the ruling. That's not uncommon. A similar instancestors is how work comp claims are ruled. I had a driver who injured a knee on the job. Initial check showed tendon damage but the doctor determined not to do surgery beca use of extensive arthritis. Work comp finally paid for knee replacement because the work injury had caused the knee's condition to worsen significantly.
 

oldngray

nowhere special
The coroner ruled the death a homicide. Health concerns notwithstanding, that was the ruling. That's not uncommon. A similar instancestors is how work comp claims are ruled. I had a driver who injured a knee on the job. Initial check showed tendon damage but the doctor determined not to do surgery beca use of extensive arthritis. Work comp finally paid for knee replacement because the work injury had caused the knee's condition to worsen significantly.

The coroner ruling of homicide was kind of on shaky grounds. I'm not sure it would have stood up after review if that case went to trial.
 

oldngray

nowhere special
Tax policy does not cause a police officer to choke a man and six officer's to wrestle him to the ground for a minor tax infraction.

Tax policy did instruct those police to target those cigarette sellers which was the instigator. Long before any choke holds or tackles.
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
Tax policy did instruct those police to target those cigarette sellers which was the instigator. Long before any choke holds or tackles.
Right. And now we are back to police tactics and what some police brutality given the seriousness (or lack thereof ) of the crime.
 

Nimnim

The Nim
I don't know what charges the grand jury were presented the evidence under, but at best I'd say involuntary manslaughter would have been indicted so it was probably brought as murder of any degree. There was no intent to kill as far as I can tell and Gardner did not die on the scene. The medical definition of homicide is just death of a human by another. So if the actions by the officers could be said as a reason for the death amongst other health issues homicide would have been likely to be the cause of death.

I should look into the details of this one more if I want to comment again, but I have heard the NYC laws require strict enforcement against the tax evasion for people attempting to sell cigarettes like Gardner was suspected of doing, and Gardner was not shown to be cooperative before the physical altercation. His death is unfortunate, but I'm sure many can agree if Gardner didn't offer any resistance, verbal or otherwise and just spoke to the officers and moved along or accepted a fine/citation/whatever, there'd have been no physical force directed at him that potentially caused his death.
 

Wally

BrownCafe Innovator & King of Puns
Tax policy does not cause a police officer to choke a man and six officer's to wrestle him to the ground for a minor tax infraction.

Why did they have to wrestle him in the first place? Was he resisting?
 

oldngray

nowhere special
I don't know what charges the grand jury were presented the evidence under, but at best I'd say involuntary manslaughter would have been indicted so it was probably brought as murder of any degree. There was no intent to kill as far as I can tell and Gardner did not die on the scene. The medical definition of homicide is just death of a human by another. So if the actions by the officers could be said as a reason for the death amongst other health issues homicide would have been likely to be the cause of death.

I should look into the details of this one more if I want to comment again, but I have heard the NYC laws require strict enforcement against the tax evasion for people attempting to sell cigarettes like Gardner was suspected of doing, and Gardner was not shown to be cooperative before the physical altercation. His death is unfortunate, but I'm sure many can agree if Gardner didn't offer any resistance, verbal or otherwise and just spoke to the officers and moved along or accepted a fine/citation/whatever, there'd have been no physical force directed at him that potentially caused his death.

Agreed. Gardner resisting arrest allowed the police to use more force. The only question is whether they went too far. If he had just obeyed the police then nothing would have happened to him though.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
The problem you have in states which have Indian reservations, such as New York, is that cigarette sales are not taxed on the reservations. Dealers will buy in bulk from the Indians and transport and sell them to individuals such as Garner at less than the wholesale rates retailers pay. Garner will then sell them on the street at below retail rates and will not pay taxes on those transactions. NY adds $4.35 to each pack while NYC adds $1.50 to that amount so there is a significant amount of revenue being lost through these illegal sales.
 

Tired Driver

Sisyphus had it easy.
I am sorry that he died. If you watch the tape, Garner states the he will not follow the instructions of the officer.
 
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