refugees

Babagounj

Strength through joy
I wish that Obama would allow all the citizens of the Middle East who risked their lives to assist our troops on the ground be placed first on the list for relocation into the USA , ahead of these so called refugees .
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
jyHJAoA.png
 

The Other Side

Well-Known Troll
Troll
no way you can tell the millions of Iraqi's that died as a result of hussiens brutal policies that they were any better of under him.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq


Again, NO PROOF that saddam killed a million iraqis.

From your own wiki link..

" Other estimates as to the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam's regime vary from roughly a quarter to half a million,"

The BULLCRAP put out by the right wing of this country, exaggerated the numbers to convince people like YOU that invading Iraq was a worthy cause.

It seemed to work.

TOS.
 

newfie

Well-Known Member
Again, NO PROOF that saddam killed a million iraqis.

From your own wiki link..

" Other estimates as to the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam's regime vary from roughly a quarter to half a million,"

The BULLCRAP put out by the right wing of this country, exaggerated the numbers to convince people like YOU that invading Iraq was a worthy cause.

It seemed to work.

TOS.

tell that to the millions of Hussiens victims.
 

bottomups

Bad Moon Risen'
Who killed more Iraqis: Saddam Hussein or George W. Bush?
Are there reputable sources for both totals?

8 Answers

Gary Teal, I met George W. Bush in 1978 when he ran for Congress. I am from Texas and fo...
14.9k Views • Upvoted by Marc Bodnick, Former Stanford PhD student in PoliSci
Gary is a Most Viewed Writer in War in Iraq (2003–11).

Well, this is certainly a clever way to frame an argument that Saddam is the good guy and Bush the bad guy, but this is an apples and oranges comparison in very many ways.

First, in regard to apples and oranges, let's keep in mind that Saddam Hussein's job, as leader of his country, was to protect Iraqis. George Bush's job, as leader of his country, was to protect Americans. (I'm stipulating that George W. Bush was wrong about the WMDs. That's not the question here.) Bush invaded Iraq and killed Iraqi soldiers as part of his job description.

Another matter to consider from the very beginning is who caused every single one of the Iraqi deaths; Saddam certainly caused the deaths of many Iraqis who were killed by Iran and by many other countries (including the US) in the First Gulf War.

As with any war, it is difficult to count the number of deaths and arrive at a number that won't be contradicted. Further, a definition of what constitutes a death caused by war is necessary. Historically, disease often killed more soldiers than combat, and that becomes less true only as a nation is able to equip its armed forces with advanced medical care. Many count the deaths due to deprivations of any number of kinds. If Saddam had never come to power at all, how many deaths would have been prevented through better relations between the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds? Could any leader have done better? But let's deal with imprecision and wade into the question. Wikipedia is as usual a good place to start. See Casualties of the Iraq War

It's helpful as well to distinguish between armed combatants and civilians. To the extent that Bush and the armed forces he commanded killed combatants, they were doing precisely what they meant to do. That's what happens in war. It's not a good thing. When two countries can't coexist peacefully, they go to war and kill as many people as they can until one side gives up. C'est la guerre.

To the extent that Bush and US armed forces killed civilians, it was a result of collateral deaths. I don't use that term lightly. But it's important as a definition; those civilians died because the US was trying to kill combatants in their midst. There is no reliable report that we bombed hospitals, as another answer here asserts. Remember that there is nothing that would legally prevent us from doing so. My father's generation fire-bombed Dresden with the express purpose of killing German civilians. We dropped two atomic bombs in Japan. Morality is different from legality; many people would say that it's flat out evil to kill another human being for any reason. More would say that it's evil to kill an innocent person even if it's accidentally caused by an effort to kill a combatant. What is clear to me, even if it's not clear to everyone, is that the US did not set out to kill any non-combatants and used appropriate measures to minimize collateral deaths. According to Wikileaks documents, the US estimate of Iraqi civilians killed is 66,081. Other sources say twice that many, and then some talk about "excess deaths", which presumably include deaths related to all the effects of war, such as reduced access to food or medical care.

(There have been incidents in which American soldiers have violated all their training and all standards of conduct and morality expected of them, and murdered innocent Iraqi citizens. When this becomes known (and granted, there must have been cover-ups or undiscovered cases), those men (thus far not an equal opportunity criminal activity as far as I know) have been arrested and tried. Nobody thinks this is acceptable.)

Saddam Hussein, however, absolutely murdered thousands of his own citizens, purposely, using chemical weapons in one attack. Again referring to Wikipedia at Al-Anfal Campaign, we see that Human Rights Watch puts the death toll at 50k to 100,000.

What are we to make of deaths suffered by Iraqi soldiers in wars that were waged for no purpose? For our purposes here, I won't count the untold hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died because of Saddam's truly senseless prosecution of a war that lasted throughout the eighties, with Iran. Iran had not attacked him, and he got nothing whatsoever out of the war. I won't count the 25k to 35k soldiers who died in the first Gulf War because of Saddam's even weirder decision to invade Kuwait.

I'm going to call it a draw. As far as we can tell, the US, under George W. Bush, purposely killed Iraqi combatants and accidentally and regretfully killed civilians in roughly the same numbers as civilians who were purposely and methodically killed by their own leader.
 

newfie

Well-Known Member
Who killed more Iraqis: Saddam Hussein or George W. Bush?
Are there reputable sources for both totals?

8 Answers

Gary Teal, I met George W. Bush in 1978 when he ran for Congress. I am from Texas and fo...
14.9k Views • Upvoted by Marc Bodnick, Former Stanford PhD student in PoliSci
Gary is a Most Viewed Writer in War in Iraq (2003–11).

Well, this is certainly a clever way to frame an argument that Saddam is the good guy and Bush the bad guy, but this is an apples and oranges comparison in very many ways.

First, in regard to apples and oranges, let's keep in mind that Saddam Hussein's job, as leader of his country, was to protect Iraqis. George Bush's job, as leader of his country, was to protect Americans. (I'm stipulating that George W. Bush was wrong about the WMDs. That's not the question here.) Bush invaded Iraq and killed Iraqi soldiers as part of his job description.

Another matter to consider from the very beginning is who caused every single one of the Iraqi deaths; Saddam certainly caused the deaths of many Iraqis who were killed by Iran and by many other countries (including the US) in the First Gulf War.

As with any war, it is difficult to count the number of deaths and arrive at a number that won't be contradicted. Further, a definition of what constitutes a death caused by war is necessary. Historically, disease often killed more soldiers than combat, and that becomes less true only as a nation is able to equip its armed forces with advanced medical care. Many count the deaths due to deprivations of any number of kinds. If Saddam had never come to power at all, how many deaths would have been prevented through better relations between the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds? Could any leader have done better? But let's deal with imprecision and wade into the question. Wikipedia is as usual a good place to start. See Casualties of the Iraq War

It's helpful as well to distinguish between armed combatants and civilians. To the extent that Bush and the armed forces he commanded killed combatants, they were doing precisely what they meant to do. That's what happens in war. It's not a good thing. When two countries can't coexist peacefully, they go to war and kill as many people as they can until one side gives up. C'est la guerre.

To the extent that Bush and US armed forces killed civilians, it was a result of collateral deaths. I don't use that term lightly. But it's important as a definition; those civilians died because the US was trying to kill combatants in their midst. There is no reliable report that we bombed hospitals, as another answer here asserts. Remember that there is nothing that would legally prevent us from doing so. My father's generation fire-bombed Dresden with the express purpose of killing German civilians. We dropped two atomic bombs in Japan. Morality is different from legality; many people would say that it's flat out evil to kill another human being for any reason. More would say that it's evil to kill an innocent person even if it's accidentally caused by an effort to kill a combatant. What is clear to me, even if it's not clear to everyone, is that the US did not set out to kill any non-combatants and used appropriate measures to minimize collateral deaths. According to Wikileaks documents, the US estimate of Iraqi civilians killed is 66,081. Other sources say twice that many, and then some talk about "excess deaths", which presumably include deaths related to all the effects of war, such as reduced access to food or medical care.

(There have been incidents in which American soldiers have violated all their training and all standards of conduct and morality expected of them, and murdered innocent Iraqi citizens. When this becomes known (and granted, there must have been cover-ups or undiscovered cases), those men (thus far not an equal opportunity criminal activity as far as I know) have been arrested and tried. Nobody thinks this is acceptable.)

Saddam Hussein, however, absolutely murdered thousands of his own citizens, purposely, using chemical weapons in one attack. Again referring to Wikipedia at Al-Anfal Campaign, we see that Human Rights Watch puts the death toll at 50k to 100,000.

What are we to make of deaths suffered by Iraqi soldiers in wars that were waged for no purpose? For our purposes here, I won't count the untold hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who died because of Saddam's truly senseless prosecution of a war that lasted throughout the eighties, with Iran. Iran had not attacked him, and he got nothing whatsoever out of the war. I won't count the 25k to 35k soldiers who died in the first Gulf War because of Saddam's even weirder decision to invade Kuwait.

I'm going to call it a draw. As far as we can tell, the US, under George W. Bush, purposely killed Iraqi combatants and accidentally and regretfully killed civilians in roughly the same numbers as civilians who were purposely and methodically killed by their own leader.

Wikopedia quoting the Liberal Rag New York Times trumps teal

Number of victims[edit]
According to The New York Times, "he [Saddam] murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas. He tortured, maimed and imprisoned countless more. His unprovoked invasion of Iran is estimated to have left another million people dead. His seizure of Kuwait threw the Middle East into crisis. More insidious, arguably, was the psychological damage he inflicted on his own land. Hussein created a nation of informants — friends on friends, circles within circles — making an entire population complicit in his rule".[9] Other estimates as to the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam's regime vary from roughly a quarter to half a million
 

bottomups

Bad Moon Risen'
Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says
Household survey records deaths from all war-related causes, 2003 to 2011.
By Dan Vergano, National Geographic
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 16, 2013

Antiquities Chief: Syria Needs Global Help to Save Heritage
  • War, More Than ISIS, Is Destroying Syria's Ancient Sites
  • Lost Island of Ancient Greece Discovered in Aegean Sea
On March 19, 2003, a U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq, beginning a ground war that culminated in the rapid capture of Baghdad and overthrow of the regime led by Saddam Hussein. A coalition-led occupation of Iraq lasted until 2011, marked by repeated bombings, an al Qaeda-linked insurgency, militia warfare, and other bloodshed in the nation of 32.6 million people.


In the new PLOS Medicine journal survey, led by public health expert Amy Hagopian of the University of Washington in Seattle, an international research team polled heads of households and siblings across Iraq. The researchers, including some from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, aimed to update and improve past estimates of the human costs of the war and occupation.


"We think it is roughly around half a million people dead. And that is likely a low estimate," says Hagopian. "People need to know the cost in human lives of the decision to go to war."


The survey responses point to around 405,000 deaths attributable to the war and occupation in Iraq from 2003 to 2011. At least another 56,000 deaths should be added to that total from households forced to flee Iraq, the study authors estimate. More than 60 percent of the excess deaths of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals.


"Wars kill people all kinds of ways, not just in shootings. And it exacts a toll on the invaders as well as the invaded," Hagopian says. Some 4,804 U.S., British, and othercoalition armed service members died in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


Past estimates of Iraqis killed in the war and occupation have varied widely. U.S. Army war logs released by Wikileaks in 2010 pointed to more than 100,000, while awidely criticized study conducted by Opinion Research Business, a London-based polling agency, estimated Iraq war deaths at 1.2 million people through 2007.


"We had all Iraqis knocking on doors to ask the questions of these households," Hagopian says, explaining a 98 percent response rate reported from the survey. Heads of households were asked about family deaths, and household members were asked about sibling deaths stretching back decades.


"This is a really serious and credible piece of work," says epidemiologist Leslie Roberts of Columbia University in New York, who has led wartime mortality surveys in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Zimbabwe, and Iraq. "I think having an accurate record of what happened is extremely important," he says, pointing to a 2005 comment by then U.S. President George Bush suggesting that only about 30,000 Iraqi civilians had died in the conflict.


Roberts agreed with Hagopian that the household survey estimate is likely conservative, because it relied on the imperfect recollections of household members and largely missed the 1.1 million Iraqis living in displaced-person camps or in other countries.


Overall, the survey results point to Baghdad as the epicenter of violent deaths during the war. Coalition forces were blamed for 35 percent of the killings, followed by militias at 32 percent. The report showed that warfare was particularly intense in 2007, followed by a sharp drop in 2008.


Sadly, the violence continues, notes Salman Rawaf, director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Public Health Education and Training, in a written commentary accompanying the survey. About 5,000 Iraqis have died in bombings and shootings this year, according to estimates by the French press agency, AFP. The return of sectarian violence means "living in Iraq today is no longer about how many have died, but how future deaths should be prevented," says Rawaf.
 

newfie

Well-Known Member
Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says
Household survey records deaths from all war-related causes, 2003 to 2011.
By Dan Vergano, National Geographic
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 16, 2013

Antiquities Chief: Syria Needs Global Help to Save Heritage
  • War, More Than ISIS, Is Destroying Syria's Ancient Sites
  • Lost Island of Ancient Greece Discovered in Aegean Sea
On March 19, 2003, a U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq, beginning a ground war that culminated in the rapid capture of Baghdad and overthrow of the regime led by Saddam Hussein. A coalition-led occupation of Iraq lasted until 2011, marked by repeated bombings, an al Qaeda-linked insurgency, militia warfare, and other bloodshed in the nation of 32.6 million people.


In the new PLOS Medicine journal survey, led by public health expert Amy Hagopian of the University of Washington in Seattle, an international research team polled heads of households and siblings across Iraq. The researchers, including some from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, aimed to update and improve past estimates of the human costs of the war and occupation.


"We think it is roughly around half a million people dead. And that is likely a low estimate," says Hagopian. "People need to know the cost in human lives of the decision to go to war."


The survey responses point to around 405,000 deaths attributable to the war and occupation in Iraq from 2003 to 2011. At least another 56,000 deaths should be added to that total from households forced to flee Iraq, the study authors estimate. More than 60 percent of the excess deaths of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals.


"Wars kill people all kinds of ways, not just in shootings. And it exacts a toll on the invaders as well as the invaded," Hagopian says. Some 4,804 U.S., British, and othercoalition armed service members died in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


Past estimates of Iraqis killed in the war and occupation have varied widely. U.S. Army war logs released by Wikileaks in 2010 pointed to more than 100,000, while awidely criticized study conducted by Opinion Research Business, a London-based polling agency, estimated Iraq war deaths at 1.2 million people through 2007.


"We had all Iraqis knocking on doors to ask the questions of these households," Hagopian says, explaining a 98 percent response rate reported from the survey. Heads of households were asked about family deaths, and household members were asked about sibling deaths stretching back decades.


"This is a really serious and credible piece of work," says epidemiologist Leslie Roberts of Columbia University in New York, who has led wartime mortality surveys in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Zimbabwe, and Iraq. "I think having an accurate record of what happened is extremely important," he says, pointing to a 2005 comment by then U.S. President George Bush suggesting that only about 30,000 Iraqi civilians had died in the conflict.


Roberts agreed with Hagopian that the household survey estimate is likely conservative, because it relied on the imperfect recollections of household members and largely missed the 1.1 million Iraqis living in displaced-person camps or in other countries.


Overall, the survey results point to Baghdad as the epicenter of violent deaths during the war. Coalition forces were blamed for 35 percent of the killings, followed by militias at 32 percent. The report showed that warfare was particularly intense in 2007, followed by a sharp drop in 2008.


Sadly, the violence continues, notes Salman Rawaf, director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Public Health Education and Training, in a written commentary accompanying the survey. About 5,000 Iraqis have died in bombings and shootings this year, according to estimates by the French press agency, AFP. The return of sectarian violence means "living in Iraq today is no longer about how many have died, but how future deaths should be prevented," says Rawaf.

pick your favorite reference on this topic. estimates are all over the board.
 

realbrown1

Annoy a liberal today. Hit them with facts.
Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says
Household survey records deaths from all war-related causes, 2003 to 2011.
By Dan Vergano, National Geographic
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 16, 2013

Antiquities Chief: Syria Needs Global Help to Save Heritage
  • War, More Than ISIS, Is Destroying Syria's Ancient Sites
  • Lost Island of Ancient Greece Discovered in Aegean Sea
On March 19, 2003, a U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq, beginning a ground war that culminated in the rapid capture of Baghdad and overthrow of the regime led by Saddam Hussein. A coalition-led occupation of Iraq lasted until 2011, marked by repeated bombings, an al Qaeda-linked insurgency, militia warfare, and other bloodshed in the nation of 32.6 million people.


In the new PLOS Medicine journal survey, led by public health expert Amy Hagopian of the University of Washington in Seattle, an international research team polled heads of households and siblings across Iraq. The researchers, including some from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, aimed to update and improve past estimates of the human costs of the war and occupation.


"We think it is roughly around half a million people dead. And that is likely a low estimate," says Hagopian. "People need to know the cost in human lives of the decision to go to war."


The survey responses point to around 405,000 deaths attributable to the war and occupation in Iraq from 2003 to 2011. At least another 56,000 deaths should be added to that total from households forced to flee Iraq, the study authors estimate. More than 60 percent of the excess deaths of men, women, and children reported from 2003 to 2011 were the direct result of shootings, bombings, airstrikes, or other violence, according to the study. The rest came indirectly, from stress-related heart attacks or ruined sanitation and hospitals.


"Wars kill people all kinds of ways, not just in shootings. And it exacts a toll on the invaders as well as the invaded," Hagopian says. Some 4,804 U.S., British, and othercoalition armed service members died in the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


Past estimates of Iraqis killed in the war and occupation have varied widely. U.S. Army war logs released by Wikileaks in 2010 pointed to more than 100,000, while awidely criticized study conducted by Opinion Research Business, a London-based polling agency, estimated Iraq war deaths at 1.2 million people through 2007.


"We had all Iraqis knocking on doors to ask the questions of these households," Hagopian says, explaining a 98 percent response rate reported from the survey. Heads of households were asked about family deaths, and household members were asked about sibling deaths stretching back decades.


"This is a really serious and credible piece of work," says epidemiologist Leslie Roberts of Columbia University in New York, who has led wartime mortality surveys in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Zimbabwe, and Iraq. "I think having an accurate record of what happened is extremely important," he says, pointing to a 2005 comment by then U.S. President George Bush suggesting that only about 30,000 Iraqi civilians had died in the conflict.


Roberts agreed with Hagopian that the household survey estimate is likely conservative, because it relied on the imperfect recollections of household members and largely missed the 1.1 million Iraqis living in displaced-person camps or in other countries.


Overall, the survey results point to Baghdad as the epicenter of violent deaths during the war. Coalition forces were blamed for 35 percent of the killings, followed by militias at 32 percent. The report showed that warfare was particularly intense in 2007, followed by a sharp drop in 2008.


Sadly, the violence continues, notes Salman Rawaf, director of the World Health Organization Collaborating Centre for Public Health Education and Training, in a written commentary accompanying the survey. About 5,000 Iraqis have died in bombings and shootings this year, according to estimates by the French press agency, AFP. The return of sectarian violence means "living in Iraq today is no longer about how many have died, but how future deaths should be prevented," says Rawaf.
How many Iraqis died every year under Sadam?
 

newfie

Well-Known Member
sounds like the Syrian refugee issue has quieted down since the female mother of a six month old baby proved to be a hardcore terrorist.

that includes female terrorist in Paris and multiple female suicide bombers around the world in the past month.

Isis is an equal opportunity employer.
 
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