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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 1325653" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Those socialist European nations you speak of are still considered capitalist economies. Capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive. I'm one to see the rise of state capitalism and state socialism not just compatible but necessary. In fact, I question if capitalism can even exist at all and rise to dominate without a state in the first place. How do you take one of the 3 factors of production, the other 2 being land and labor, and yet one is given market dominance over the other 2? If labor was dominate we'd call that bad as a form of unionism and if land was dominate we'd call that bad as some form of aristocracy.</p><p></p><p>Socialism was first used by the frenchman Henri de Saint-Simon (1760-1825) and as an aristocrat, he believed society should be run by technocratic experts where industrialists would lead and direct society as it was assumed they were the most knowledgeable to do so. These technocratic experts would plan all aspects of life and thus a utopia would emerge. IMO, the same premise doth still apply and both the so-called political right and left in the US still use many aspects of Saint-Simon's original ideas. We just call it variations of central planning from a centralized topdown authority. Thus I see socialism and capitalism as twins, arising practically from the same mother.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 1325653, member: 2189"] Those socialist European nations you speak of are still considered capitalist economies. Capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive. I'm one to see the rise of state capitalism and state socialism not just compatible but necessary. In fact, I question if capitalism can even exist at all and rise to dominate without a state in the first place. How do you take one of the 3 factors of production, the other 2 being land and labor, and yet one is given market dominance over the other 2? If labor was dominate we'd call that bad as a form of unionism and if land was dominate we'd call that bad as some form of aristocracy. Socialism was first used by the frenchman Henri de Saint-Simon (1760-1825) and as an aristocrat, he believed society should be run by technocratic experts where industrialists would lead and direct society as it was assumed they were the most knowledgeable to do so. These technocratic experts would plan all aspects of life and thus a utopia would emerge. IMO, the same premise doth still apply and both the so-called political right and left in the US still use many aspects of Saint-Simon's original ideas. We just call it variations of central planning from a centralized topdown authority. Thus I see socialism and capitalism as twins, arising practically from the same mother. [/QUOTE]
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