Supplementary suicide discussion... please be respectful...

[cheryl]

I've already expressed my condolences for Janice Barnett's, and her family's, loss. It was heartfelt, as I am sure the other condolences expressed in this thread have been.

That said, quite a few have expressed the opinion that this thread should not delve further into the question of the rights and wrongs and implications of the termination that appears to have been the proximate cause of Jim Barnett's suicide. In fact, a moderator has declared that he won't let that happen. Some have disagreed.

Well, the first post in this thread was extracted from a different thread. I'd like a moderator to extract this post from this thread (with a resulting link) and use it to start another in which we can freely discuss the firing in light of the seriousness of the results without interfering with the expression of heartfelt sentiment on the subject of Mrs. Barnett's loss.



http://www.parispi.net/articles/2008/11/20/obituaries/doc4925985935ffd963554218.txt.
As I have come to understand it, Mr. Barnett had a long-running difficult relationship with a center manager. A customer may have complained about a NDA delivered after the promised delivery time, and that delivery time may not have been the one sheeted by Mr. Barnett. According to Mrs. Barnett UPS "loaded up" Mr. Barnett with 9-13 NDA stops and followed him, then pulled him back in and fired him, presumably because he was observed delivering a NDA at a later time than he put in the DIAD. He later killed himself, never having told his wife that he'd been fired, and leaving her in a difficult financial and terrible emotional position.

Mr. Barnett was apparently fired for "dishonesty". This sounds like he was stealing out of boxes, but means nothing of the sort. In fact he was faking paper results, which is IMHO a near prerequisite for a successful career in management at UPS (though it does result in occasional firings of management as well), and "firing" at UPS is often a temporary thing, albeit with regional differences (TN?) particularly for this offence.

OK. Now, I hope, you can express your thoughts on this without being hushed by the mourners.

 

[cheryl]

Losing job a common factor in suicide cases - Press Democrat
The loss of a job and fear of financial ruin can drive people to suicide, but usually not without other compelling reasons, an expert said Wednesday.

"You have to be on the edge of the suicidal precipice before losing your job would kind of tip the scale," said Dr. Ronald Maris, author and professor emeritus of psychiatry at the University of South Carolina Medical School. "A lot of people lose their jobs. Very few people kill themselves."

Suicide and tough times: Any link? - LA Times
The risk factors for suicide have been well-studied by psychologists and sociologists, says Dr. Robert Simon, psychiatrist at Suburban Hospital in Bethesda, Md., and professor at Georgetown University School of Medicine in Washington, D.C. By far, the strongest risk factor is mental illness in the form of depression or anxiety disorders. Many studies have shown that about 90% of those who attempt suicide have a mental disorder.

Generally, a number of stressors are involved. “Suicides are rarely if ever caused by just one thing,” says Simon. An impulsive personality “is one risk factor. If you’ve got a bunch of other ones, they start to add up.”

Adds Nock, “The No. 1 reason people give for making suicide attempts, pretty consistently across studies, is escape from some intolerable or humiliating situation.”

Often there is a trigger, some final stressor that may push a person to suicide.

 

[dillweed]

I feel we should let this entire subject rest in peace.

 

[dannyboy]

thanks Cheryl, for moving it to a new thread.

one of the things you posted was

“The No. 1 reason people give for making suicide attempts, pretty consistently across studies, is escape from some intolerable or humiliating situation.”

jim had a lot of pressures, just like each one of us. family, job, money and the list is long. some might have been on his mind, others not an issue.

but the defining point of the above statement. humiliating situation.

jim was in one of those. one of the worst.

best i can tell about jim, he took great pride in being a ups man. it was and had been a great part of his life. it had provided for his family and himself for many years.

now, this once proud man is fired for dishonesty. you can rationalize it all you want, what he did was a dishonest act. why he did it, i can not speak for. i can only state that i know it does go on, it goes on every day, and that in at least some cases, not only does management know about it, they actively look the other way so as to not rock the service boat.

if i had a dollar for every time a sup/manager told me to do something that behind the scenes is done, but is still wrong, i would pretty much be debt free.

getting back to jim, fired for dishonesty. with that charge, he can not draw unemployment (unless things have changed recently) and he is now and forever "branded". every job application he now fills out will have to have ups as a reference, and in doing so, he will have to state why he left.

further more, as a senior driver at his center, the shame of this type of action is real. a very humiliating experience. and in all this, he was trying to see if there was any way he could have his job back.

my personal opinion is that the humiliation he felt was very real. so real he did not want to share it with anyone else, even his beloved janice. and the longer it went on, the more it got to him.

blame ups, the system, the manager, the union, his co-workers of many years? all had input into the situation. but none reached jim, except the humiliation he felt. and he felt alone.

i mentioned before, one of the best tactics to use to break someone is to either keep them in solitary, or at least make them think they are going through this totally alone.

i do know from behind the scene reports i have gotten that the outcome could very well been very different had it been for a phone call or conversation earlier on. but none was forthcoming.

i guess more than any reason this is why i volunteered to become a steward. i know first hand how this type of situation can play with your mind. and no one from the union, company, or any of my fellow workers were in contact. everyone was too damn busy to call.

difference was i talked to my wife, my father-in-law whom i loved as my own, and prayed a lot. but that alone feeling still yet was terrible.

maybe instead of trying to assess blame, we need to take a bit more away from this. unless we stand for each other, check up on each other, and really care for our fellow brothers in brown.....

sorry for the rant. sorry janice if this hurts you in any way, because as i see it, there was nothing you could have done, nothing you could have known.

d

 

[MR_Vengeance]

Though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now forever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find Strength in what remains behind;
In the primal sympathy Which having been must ever be;
In the soothing thoughts that spring 0ut of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death,
In years that bring the philosophic mind.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
Thanks to it's tenderness, it's joys and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.

 

[But Benefits Are Great!]

I feel we should let this entire subject rest in peace.

Here here

 

[dilligaf]

Daniel, I didn't see your post as a rant at all. All I read was filled with heart-felt honesty. Please feel free to continue with that.

 

[opsys]

I didnt catch the first thread. Very tragic.

 

[trplnkl]

This is actually what I had in mind when I mentioned in the first thread that it was not the place or time for a "blamefest". I have no problem with this thread at all. Although, if we could keep our personal evaluation generic as opposed to Jim's personal tragedy I feel it would serve a good purpose. If this subject makes you uneasy, I respectfully suggest you just don't read here.

 

[trplnkl]

In response to Gandydancer: "OK. Now, I hope, you can express your thoughts on this without being hushed by the mourners."
Gandy, my desire to "hush" any discussion was in respect to the mourning widow. One thing I have learned on public forums is that sooner or later someone was going to try and place all the blame on UPS management. That would not have been left alone by some others and before you know it, it could become quite nasty. I was trying to place a wall between Mrs. Barnett and the ugliness I have seen from time to time on this forum. I'm not saying that anyone would be incorrect in their position, but that the manner of speech that could be very abrasive to someone with their emotions already raw to the touch. I hope this makes sense to everyone, I do not have any desire to be the thread police.

One of my biggest complaints about UPS is that the rules are so numerous and complicated that they work against each other much of the time. Sometime the rules are not the same for management as for the hourly and rarely are the punishments for infractions equal. Integrity is a prime example one of those rules. Just yesterday, I had an off area business misload for our centers home town and I was delivering 90 miles away. Having my usual heavy load that was it's usual mess, I knew full well that the business would be closed long before I could even make my meet point for sending in my outgoing volume and management knew it too. I had called the center when I found the misload and reported it, a few hours later I received at text message to record the package before 1700 as closed. I replied with an inquiry as to whom sent me the message. Of course I did not get an answer. Before doing as I was instructed, I took a cell phone pick of the text message. I have a problem with this because I could very well be fired for dishonesty. The worst that might happen to the center manager in this case would be demotion and possibly relocated, but neither are likely to happen to them.

Danny said "getting back to jim, fired for dishonesty. with that charge, he can not draw unemployment (unless things have changed recently) and he is now and forever "branded". every job application he now fills out will have to have ups as a reference, and in doing so, he will have to state why he left."
This is not entirely true. On future applications you can state the reason for leaving as "irreconcilable differences" and say that you are not at liberty to discuss the details. Granted that might keep you from getting some jobs but is better than trying to explain the situation. Federal law says the company can not divulge information regarding your employment tenure that you had not previously mentioned in your application. They can't even say that they would or would not rehire you. They can not say you were fired for any reason. All they can really say is that you were employed there from date to date. Unemployment rules differ from state to state.

 

[But Benefits Are Great!]

UPS is no more to blame for someone pulling the plug than this forum is.

If an individual is pre-disposed to suicidal tendencies, missing out on a good parking spot could push him over the edge. If a person is not of suicidal tendencies, nothing could push him to do it.

Somebody working for a company for 20+ years knows intimately how that company operates.

Nobody is to "Blame". NOBODY.

With all that being said, if I wanted to get freakin depressed, down, read awful stuff that Is not an added benefit - I'd turn on the news.

Anyone have the wheel here? Merry Freakin Christmas

 

[toonertoo]

Anyone have the wheel here????????? Yes we all do. Steer clear if it makes you depressed. Otherwise if no one wants to discuss this, the thread will die. But it looks as though several have informative things to say.

 

[But Benefits Are Great!]

Anyone have the wheel here????????? Yes we all do. Steer clear if it makes you depressed. Otherwise if no one wants to discuss this, the thread will die. But it looks as though several have informative things to say.

Yes, but if the thread dies, we'll have to post about the death of the thread, try to place blame, make it a big downer, and just drag everything down with it.

 

[dannyboy]

a saying comes to mind

its alright to be ignorant, but it is gross stupidity to make a career out of it.

d

 

[dilligaf]

BBAG, for someone who doesn't seem to want to talk about this you seem to be doing an admirable job of putting your 2 cents in. And keeping the thread alive.
And yes UPS played a role in Jim's suicide. To say otherwise is just plain silly. I'm not saying they own all the blame. Jim's own choices also played a role in it too. It's a sad situation and if some one on BC can learn from the mistakes made then BC has done a good job.


TRPL, I think you are right on the money as far as applying for new jobs. Every application I have filled out has this question.......

"Can we contact the employer?" YES NO

When I filled out the paperwork for UPS the same question appeared and for one particular previous employer I chose NO. It was because I was terminated from that job. If I had a lick of sense I would have quit that job long before but I didn't and ended up getting fired. I just can't find it in me to quit a job. Worked out in the end.

 

[But Benefits Are Great!]

I promise you - I am only stating what many others are thinking, but feel it would be too crass to state out loud.

Dannyboy - Anymore sayings come to mind? Because I just really live for your thoughts, oh wise one.


FIVE

 

[dilligaf]

Sarcasm at it's best.

 

[feeder53]

My employer does not define me, he may say what he will and do what he feels is right for any situation, but it is I who define who I am and what people ultimately say and think about me.

 

[dannyboy]

feeder

i dont think your employer defines you, but what you do for them does add to who you are.

and for some people it adds a lot more than others.

but it is I who define who I am and what people ultimately say and think about me.

i agree 100%. and a poor choice at the wrong time can also impact

d

 

[Pip]

The thing about suicide and depression is things build up over time. You fall into a rut. It seems everything you do to get out of that rut just ends up backfiring. Before you know it, you feel the same way when you wake up as you did when you went to bed, A lot of sleepless nights, nonstop worrying, little problems easily seem like impossible problems to correct or let go of.

When depression gets so deep that you can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, it is only a matter of time before something will trigger the extreme. Men are more inclined to hide depression to the point there are little or no warning signs.

My wife never seen it coming, my co-workers never seen it coming, My friends and family never seen it coming. One day something triggered me to go into such a deep sense of helplessness, that I was so centered on the task at hand. It was like having blinders on 24/7. your planning nonstop around the clock, looking for the best option. Your not thinking clearly of the ones you leave behind that will have to deal with the aftermath. All the while your putting on as if everything is ok, maybe leaving little hints that something might be wrong. If others aren't looking for them, they don't even give it a second thought and it isn't their fault for not recognizing them either. I had everybody fooled when I finally made my first attempt, the only reason it failed was I forgot the click the safety off, and lost my nerve. The second attempt, 2 days later in the hospital almost succeeded. If it wasn't for fast thinking on the nurses part to bring me back, I would not be here today.

It is very hard to reach out for help when you feel others look up to you as being strong. Until you have been in depression so deep, that it is all you think about. It is hard to imagine what that person really feels or what they are going through. Suicidal thoughts are real, they can consume a person to the point of carrying them out. Things always build up to it, but it is something that will trigger it to the next level and over the edge.

I have been reading Janice's posts with great attention the last couple weeks. Looking closely at what she was saying and how she was saying things... and to what others were saying. My wife would be sitting beside me reading the posts and would just look at me shaking her head relating to what Janice was posting. It hit home for my wife. Janice, there would have been very little you could have done to stop it. Thats the truth.

9 years later I've learned a lot about how to deal with stress, depression, how to reach out to your support group (family, friends, etc.) Asking for help isn't showing weakness. Knowing I need my downtime, which is in my avatar, my catfishing trips is what helps me relieve that everyday stress and not to let it get built up to the point it once was. I'm not saying go out and start fishing, just find something that you can do that you like, that will allow you that down time.

The message here is things aren't as bad as they might seem at the moment. There is help if given the chance. Reaching out will not make you any less of a person, nor will it make you look weak. Some might be able to understand what I'm saying, others may not. I'm fine with both.