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<blockquote data-quote="TUT" data-source="post: 1329023" data-attributes="member: 29298"><p>I think this is the argument of "if you are a non-beleiver you can't have morals". That there is no reason for them to choose right from wrong, that we all only keep this all together because of fear of punishment in the afterlife. The idea of the first statement is wrong and is now an Atheists cornerstone they now use, "Yes we can have morals and not believe in God." I find that totally plausible to be able to do both. Because of free will, "Do onto others" can be divine or it could just be good wisdom. From there a code of ethics can be built, believing in God or not doesn't matter. Intelligence can see that a society can be better served well with a sound moral compass. I like peace, I do not like chaos, peace is possible with morals, chaos would ensue without morals.</p><p></p><p>Now some non-believers may in fact do what you say, that is undeniable, but that doesn't mean each individual, religious or not cannot choose a socially acceptable moral path. That is always an individuals choice and it doesn't have to be centered around belief in God. More of a centering around of using your intelligence for good.</p><p></p><p>You mention at the EOD there is no price to pay for non-believers in their line of thinking, true. But many churches now teach that Jesus has given sinners a "no price to pay" policy as well. Now is this all man made? The Old Testament was too fist pounding with no way out and people we're losing hope in themselves? And to keep the faith strong we needed Love and Forgiveness to be the cornerstone, hence Jesus? This way man could rebound from mistake after mistake?</p><p></p><p>So tell me, would you do a lot of "bad things" if you decided that religion wasn't for you? Or if God said, "You can do whatever you want, it has no affect on the afterlife.", that you would then do "bad things"? You know why I don't fathom to cheat on my wife, because I know how crushed she would be and how totally awful I'd feel about myself letting down the person I loved for so long that has put her total trust and love in me. All for what? Selfishness, shallowness and the total disregard of another adage "Grass isn't greener". Would you kill or steal if they weren't commandments? I wouldn't do either for many reasons beyond the big 10. Most of which are I don't want to be killed and stolen from which all goes back to "Do onto others", which is basically the prime building block of morals all centered around wisdom and intelligence.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps this is some of the arrogance perceived by people who have issues with Christians or religion. That they can't be good and proper without a threatening force. That they just can't be good because of who they are and/or that it might just make sense that in a crowded world, getting along might just have its benefits for all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="TUT, post: 1329023, member: 29298"] I think this is the argument of "if you are a non-beleiver you can't have morals". That there is no reason for them to choose right from wrong, that we all only keep this all together because of fear of punishment in the afterlife. The idea of the first statement is wrong and is now an Atheists cornerstone they now use, "Yes we can have morals and not believe in God." I find that totally plausible to be able to do both. Because of free will, "Do onto others" can be divine or it could just be good wisdom. From there a code of ethics can be built, believing in God or not doesn't matter. Intelligence can see that a society can be better served well with a sound moral compass. I like peace, I do not like chaos, peace is possible with morals, chaos would ensue without morals. Now some non-believers may in fact do what you say, that is undeniable, but that doesn't mean each individual, religious or not cannot choose a socially acceptable moral path. That is always an individuals choice and it doesn't have to be centered around belief in God. More of a centering around of using your intelligence for good. You mention at the EOD there is no price to pay for non-believers in their line of thinking, true. But many churches now teach that Jesus has given sinners a "no price to pay" policy as well. Now is this all man made? The Old Testament was too fist pounding with no way out and people we're losing hope in themselves? And to keep the faith strong we needed Love and Forgiveness to be the cornerstone, hence Jesus? This way man could rebound from mistake after mistake? So tell me, would you do a lot of "bad things" if you decided that religion wasn't for you? Or if God said, "You can do whatever you want, it has no affect on the afterlife.", that you would then do "bad things"? You know why I don't fathom to cheat on my wife, because I know how crushed she would be and how totally awful I'd feel about myself letting down the person I loved for so long that has put her total trust and love in me. All for what? Selfishness, shallowness and the total disregard of another adage "Grass isn't greener". Would you kill or steal if they weren't commandments? I wouldn't do either for many reasons beyond the big 10. Most of which are I don't want to be killed and stolen from which all goes back to "Do onto others", which is basically the prime building block of morals all centered around wisdom and intelligence. Perhaps this is some of the arrogance perceived by people who have issues with Christians or religion. That they can't be good and proper without a threatening force. That they just can't be good because of who they are and/or that it might just make sense that in a crowded world, getting along might just have its benefits for all. [/QUOTE]
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