The Founding Fathers Were Scoundrels!

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by wkmac, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    The Lost Story of the American Revolution
     
  2. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

  3. rickyb

    rickyb Well-Known Member

    from chris hedges article:

    the rich, throughout history, have found methods and subterfuges to subjugate and resubjugate the working class. And workers have cyclically awoken throughout history to revolt. The founding fathers, largely wealthy slaveholders, feared direct democracy and enthusiastically embraced the slaughter of indigenous peoples to seize their land and resources. They rigged our political process to thwart popular rule and protect the property rights of the native aristocracy. The laboring classes were to be kept at bay. The electoral college, the original power of the states to appoint senators, and the disenfranchisement of women, Native Americans, African Americans, and men without property locked most people out of the democratic process at the beginning of the republic. We had to fight for our rights and our voice. Hundreds of workers attempting to form unions were killed and thousands were wounded in our labor wars. Tens of thousands more were fired and blacklisted.


    The democratic openings we achieved were fought and paid for with the blood of abolitionists, African Americans, suffragists, workers, and antiwar and civil rights activists. Our radical movements, repressed and ruthlessly dismantled in the name of anticommunism, were the real engines of equality and social justice.
     
  4. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    So how did the Canadian gov't get control over their land ?
    Did they do honest trades with the native population ?
     
  5. newfie

    newfie Well-Known Member

    wow they weren't gods send here from the heavens? Shocker!!
     
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  6. rickyb

    rickyb Well-Known Member

    The Founding Fathers did lead the war for independence from Britain. But they did not do it for the equal right of all to life, liberty, and equality. Their intention was to set up a new government that would protect the property of slave owners, land speculators, merchants, and bondholders. Independence from England had already been secured in parts of the country by grassroots rebellion a year before the battles at Lexington and Concord that initiated hostilities with Britain. - howard zinn
     
  7. newfie

    newfie Well-Known Member

    so now a Canadian thinks he speaks for the founding fathers?
     
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  8. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Watching 2 Canadians debate each other, I'm reminded that Article XI of the Articles of Confederation called for Canada to be extended the invitation to join the young nation known as the United States. On March 1, 1781' the official invitation was in fact made. Fascinating the thought had they accepted.
     
  9. rickyb

    rickyb Well-Known Member

    from a chris hedges article:

    The framers of the Constitution established a series of mechanisms to thwart the popular will, from the electoral college to the appointment of senators, buttressed by the disenfranchisement of African Americans, women, Native Americans, and the landless. George Washington, probably the wealthiest man in the country when the war was over—much of his money was earned by speculating on seized Indian land—shared exclusive economic and political power with his fellow aristocrats. This distrust of popular rule among the elite runs in a straight line from The Federalist Papers and the Constitutional Convention of 1787 to the 2000 presidential election, where the Democratic candidate, Al Gore, received over half a million more popular votes than the Republican George W. Bush
     
  10. newfie

    newfie Well-Known Member

    sounds like you have a lot of problems in Canada
     
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  11. oldngray

    oldngray nowhere special

    pictures-538.jpg
     
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  12. bbsam

    bbsam Moderator Staff Member

  13. rickyb

    rickyb Well-Known Member

    CJP: Let's return to the idea of the American Dream and talk about the origins of the American political system. I mean, it was never intended to be a democracy (actually the term always used to describe the architecture of the American political system was "republic," which is very different from a democracy, as the ancient Romans well understood), and there had always been a struggle for freedom and democracy from below, which continues to this day. In this context, wasn't the American Dream built at least partly on a myth?

    NC: Sure. Right through American history, there's been an ongoing clash between pressure for more freedom and democracy coming from below and efforts at elite control and domination from above. It goes back to the founding of the country, as you pointed out. The "founding fathers," even James Madison, the main framer, who was as much a believer in democracy as any other leading political figure in those days, felt that the United States political system should be in the hands of the wealthy because the wealthy are the "more responsible set of men." And, thus, the structure of the formal constitutional system placed more power in the hands of the Senate, which was not elected in those days. It was selected from the wealthy men who, as Madison put it, had sympathy for the owners of wealth and private property.

    This is clear when you read the debates of the Constitutional Convention. As Madison said, a major concern of the political order has to be "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority." And he had arguments. If everyone had a vote freely, he said, the majority of the poor would get together and they would organize to take away the property of the rich. That, he added, would be obviously unjust, so the constitutional system had to be set up to prevent democracy.

    Recall that Aristotle had said something similar in his Politics. Of all political systems, he felt that democracy was the best. But he saw the same problem that Madison saw in a true democracy, which is that the poor might organize to take away the property of the rich. The solution that he proposed, however, was something like a welfare state with the aim of reducing economic inequality. The other alternative, pursued by the "founding fathers," is to reduce democracy.

    Chomsky: Is the American Dream Dead?
     
  14. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    Why would you even post this ?
    You know corporations own & run this country , as you have posted the very fact numerous times .
     
  15. rickyb

    rickyb Well-Known Member

    i think theres alot of myth about the fathers, plus it digs into the tensions that arise from any capitalist democracy.
     
  16. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    Would it be nice if all the US socialists were to actually move to a socialist country ?
     
  17. moreluck

    moreluck golden ticket member

    Bernie in Siberia?
     
  18. Monkey Butt

    Monkey Butt I've got a rainbow butt! Staff Member

    That's why they moved here.
     
  19. Baba gounj

    Baba gounj pensioner

    I think Venezuela could use their expert advice .
     
  20. rickyb

    rickyb Well-Known Member

    depends what you mean by that. not a post capitalist cooperative country because it doesnt exist although i think there are entire cities in italy which are worker coops.

    US is socialist in a different sense in that you spend alot of government money on war. some on wall street too.