UAW says no to concessions to keep plant open

Would you take the wage cuts or unemployment?


  • Total voters
    14

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
No way would I take that big a cut. A smaller cut offset with stock could be more easily swallowed, even a temporary halt on pension contributions. No way would a 50% pay cut with no make up offer would ever be acceptable to any Union!
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
AFL-CIO President Trumka Drops the Facade: “Our Long-Term Job is to Re-establish Popular Control Over Private Corporations”…

Via the AFL-CIO’s official blog is a summary of a speech Trumka gave on September 24th:
A cynical, deeply dishonest and incoherent message—that big government is somehow to blame for the current crisis that the budget deficit will eat our children, and that illegal immigrants took all the good jobs.
We have to offer working people something other than the dead-end choice between the failed agenda of greed and the voices of hate and division and violence.
There is an alliance of the corporations and high-powered government politicians against the interests of working people.
Why the work [Working America] is doing is so critical. I would just strongly urge everyone to get to work organizing on the local level because I think it’s the only way we’re going to turn things around in this country.
We need to fundamentally restructure our economy and re-establish popular control over the private corporations which have distorted our economy and hijacked our government. That’s a long-term job, but one we should start now.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
No way would I take that big a cut. A smaller cut offset with stock could be more easily swallowed, even a temporary halt on pension contributions. No way would a 50% pay cut with no make up offer would ever be acceptable to any Union!

Yes, because a 100% pay cut with no benefits or pension is so much better. I was talking to one of our newest part timers last night and learned he is a former computer programmer. When educated people are having difficulties finding jobs you know these morons are going to find it extra hard as I am betting most of them are not skilled nor educated. They wanted $29/hr, to put a hunk of metal in a machine and push a button, and in todays economic conditions it just is no longer feasible. Besides, what they were offered really wasn't all that bad.

from this source.

The new contract would include a lower base wage of $15.50 per hour, down from $29 per hour, and pare the wage for skilled trades workers to $24 per hour from about $33.

Autoworkers who stay with JD Norman would receive lump sum bonuses, in some cases up to $35,000 over two years, and retain the right to transfer to open GM plants. They could keep the bonus if they did transfer.

This was a take it or leave it situation. They either took the deal and kept their jobs, or didn't and would lose them. JD Norman has stated they will no longer pursue purchasing this plant. This is not only a loss for the workers, but a loss for Indianapolis as this city could have used those extra jobs JD Norman would have brought in.
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
Yes, because a 100% pay cut with no benefits or pension is so much better. I was talking to one of our newest part timers last night and learned he is a former computer programmer. When educated people are having difficulties finding jobs you know these morons are going to find it extra hard as I am betting most of them are not skilled nor educated. They wanted $29/hr, to put a hunk of metal in a machine and push a button, and in todays economic conditions it just is no longer feasible. Besides, what they were offered really wasn't all that bad.

from this source.



This was a take it or leave it situation. They either took the deal and kept their jobs, or didn't and would lose them. JD Norman has stated they will no longer pursue purchasing this plant. This is not only a loss for the workers, but a loss for Indianapolis as this city could have used those extra jobs JD Norman would have brought in.

Unemployment pays something so it's not 100%. You think that the only way for that plant to survive is to reduce wages of the Union employees by 50%. I seriously doubt it. It is the easy way out for the company. A way to try to make it look like the big bad Union is to blame for all the lost jobs. Fact is the management entered into the labor agreement and they were well aware of the costs associated with it. Seems to me that's poor management. Knowing you fixed costs for an extended period of time and not planing for a way to pay for it if something happens and slows your profits.

I did not say absolutely no way to any cuts, I do think 50% is completely out of the question. The company knew when they made that offer there was no way it would ever pass, they simply used it as a ploy to turn the criticism away from themselves and onto the Union. The Union is not to blame for the demise of that plant, management is!!!!!!
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Unemployment pays something so it's not 100%. You think that the only way for that plant to survive is to reduce wages of the Union employees by 50%. I seriously doubt it. It is the easy way out for the company. A way to try to make it look like the big bad Union is to blame for all the lost jobs. Fact is the management entered into the labor agreement and they were well aware of the costs associated with it. Seems to me that's poor management. Knowing you fixed costs for an extended period of time and not planing for a way to pay for it if something happens and slows your profits.

I did not say absolutely no way to any cuts, I do think 50% is completely out of the question. The company knew when they made that offer there was no way it would ever pass, they simply used it as a ploy to turn the criticism away from themselves and onto the Union. The Union is not to blame for the demise of that plant, management is!!!!!!

Reducing wages by 50% was the only way to keep that plant operational. It was a take it or leave it situation, and the union chose to leave it which means the plant will close, and it is now 100% the unions fault that the plant is closing. Those that do not get to transfer out will get unemployment for a period of time, but honestly they don't deserve it. Unemployment rules are set so that if someone is offered a bonafide job they have to take it, and they were offered said job but chose to turn it down. Of course even though they will get unemployment it won't last forever, and I can tell you I know many good intelligent, well educated people who are taking $10/hr. jobs or less because they can't find work. Most of those UAW workers have a high school diploma or worse a GED. They will get lucky to find a job that pays that $15.50/hr. and that is if they can find a job at all. What is worse is JD Norman was going to hire an additional 1300 to work in that plant above and beyond the 850 who would are already there so the city as a whole loses because that is 1300 people who have won't have an opportunity to work there. I just can't fathom what would persuade to turn down a good job offer other than pure ignorance and greed.
 

diesel96

Well-Known Member
so you really don't have much ground here to judge these workers and their situation.


you know these morons are going to find it extra hard as I am betting most of them are not skilled nor educated.


"Here comes the judge" ...... "Here comes the judge" ....."Here comes the judge"


[video=youtube;3hIcKkKID8k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hIcKkKID8k[/video]


Many of my "hourly" peers at UPS have Edu/Mech/Bus backgrounds at one time or another prior to their hire date, and some still apply their "moonlighting" skills for extra income.




Today's generation doesn't have any vivid memories of family who knew what it meant to have to work for a dollar an hour with no type of benefits until they formed and joined unions. People today forget that it is labor unions that have given us the five-day workweek, holidays, overtime pay, increased wages, etc. Yet, these valued benefits are seeping away from the American worker day-by-day. Their demise is sometimes hardly noticeable, yet, constantly eroding.

If you look at the big picture, Union fault has little to do with the near-fatal collaspe of the US Auto Industry or it's subsidiaries ..... the Germans and Japs actually designed/produced/marketed cars people wanted, needed, have fun with, acessorize and target the greatest demand of the consumer ..... making all the difference in the world.....The US has closed the gap in consumer confidence in just a few short years of our foreign competitors..... However, we still get a bad rap for what we we're known for in the past, making low quality cars and trucks....That's terrible marketing.... Based on Inital Quality studies our product is as good as or better than the Imports. U.S. Automakers do have great sales satisfaciton and they know how to take care of their customers.
Truly, U.S. Automakers have got to feel the pulse of the American and global communitie's needs, and continue to improve demand thru quality engineering, marketing......and increase production will soon follow helping us get back to the auto mfg powerhouse we once were.
Wake up and smell the coffee, stop blaming free market failures on the laborers/unions........The problem lays above their pay scale.....

http://www.vehicles.com/2010-banner-year-us-automakers-jd-powers-iqs/

Take a look at Audi's upswing and methods for example.....

[video=youtube;ZtJFDsT1cs4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtJFDsT1cs4[/video]
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Libertarians often spend a lot of time defending the rich who have supposedly earned their wealth in the marketplace purely through productivity, and then they denounce the crooked labor unions and “socialists”who seek to steal the justly acquired property of the rich. This is a dangerous oversimplification of how the economy is structured, and it unfortunately pushes libertarians away from their true allies on the progressive left.
Working class activism is generally perceived in libertarian circles as collectivist, riddled with economic fallacies, and as yet another coercive state intrusion into the voluntary and peaceful exchange of goods. This very well might be true, but mainstream labor activism is in reality a well-justified but misled reaction to the horrors of state power and capitalism. After all, the elite have been using the state to rig the scales in their favor for virtually all of history. It should come as no surprise when people fight fire with fire by trying to steer the state into advancing their interests instead of that of their oppressors. Unfortunately, libertarians leave out the first part of this cycle and focus exclusively on the statism of the unionizers, ignoring the original anti-market behavior committed by the capitalists.
These positions are chosen as a result of the system of false choices which confront us politically.

A Libertatian in Solidarity with Jimmy Johns Workers' Union
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
"Here comes the judge" ...... "Here comes the judge" ....."Here comes the judge"





Many of my "hourly" peers at UPS have Edu/Mech/Bus backgrounds at one time or another prior to their hire date, and some still apply their "moonlighting" skills for extra income.




Today's generation doesn't have any vivid memories of family who knew what it meant to have to work for a dollar an hour with no type of benefits until they formed and joined unions. People today forget that it is labor unions that have given us the five-day workweek, holidays, overtime pay, increased wages, etc. Yet, these valued benefits are seeping away from the American worker day-by-day. Their demise is sometimes hardly noticeable, yet, constantly eroding.

If you look at the big picture, Union fault has little to do with the near-fatal collaspe of the US Auto Industry or it's subsidiaries ..... the Germans and Japs actually designed/produced/marketed cars people wanted, needed, have fun with, acessorize and target the greatest demand of the consumer ..... making all the difference in the world.....The US has closed the gap in consumer confidence in just a few short years of our foreign competitors..... However, we still get a bad rap for what we we're known for in the past, making low quality cars and trucks....That's terrible marketing.... Based on Inital Quality studies our product is as good as or better than the Imports. U.S. Automakers do have great sales satisfaciton and they know how to take care of their customers.
Truly, U.S. Automakers have got to feel the pulse of the American and global communitie's needs, and continue to improve demand thru quality engineering, marketing......and increase production will soon follow helping us get back to the auto mfg powerhouse we once were.
Wake up and smell the coffee, stop blaming free market failures on the laborers/unions........The problem lays above their pay scale.....

http://www.vehicles.com/2010-banner-year-us-automakers-jd-powers-iqs/

Take a look at Audi's upswing and methods for example.....

Way to go taking things out of context. The bottom line here is the union is there to protect and help grow the wealth of the workers, and in this case they choose the exact opposite of that. They choose to take away opportunities for local workers to make that $15.50/hr. or $24/hr. if they were skilled. They choose to kill jobs instead of maintain them. Its why the UAW today stands for "U Ain't working".
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
Way to go taking things out of context. The bottom line here is the union is there to protect and help grow the wealth of the workers, and in this case they choose the exact opposite of that. They choose to take away opportunities for local workers to make that $15.50/hr. or $24/hr. if they were skilled. They choose to kill jobs instead of maintain them. Its why the UAW today stands for "U Ain't working".

Who exactly is the big bad Union you refer to? Is there some person known as "The Union" that ruined everything for these poor people?

Oh wait, the Union is the workers:surprised: You are obviously a 1)Non Union person or 2) Non involved Union person that simply pays dues. The big bad Union never does anything it's membership didn't direct it to do!!!
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
Reducing wages by 50% was the only way to keep that plant operational. It was a take it or leave it situation, and the union chose to leave it which means the plant will close, and it is now 100% the unions fault that the plant is closing. Those that do not get to transfer out will get unemployment for a period of time, but honestly they don't deserve it. Unemployment rules are set so that if someone is offered a bonafide job they have to take it, and they were offered said job but chose to turn it down. Of course even though they will get unemployment it won't last forever, and I can tell you I know many good intelligent, well educated people who are taking $10/hr. jobs or less because they can't find work. Most of those UAW workers have a high school diploma or worse a GED. They will get lucky to find a job that pays that $15.50/hr. and that is if they can find a job at all. What is worse is JD Norman was going to hire an additional 1300 to work in that plant above and beyond the 850 who would are already there so the city as a whole loses because that is 1300 people who have won't have an opportunity to work there. I just can't fathom what would persuade to turn down a good job offer other than pure ignorance and greed.

No friend, thats exactly what the company want's all you sheep to believe. Wake up and pull your head above water. Sometimes it helps to use your own brain instead of repeating something someone else said.
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Who exactly is the big bad Union you refer to? Is there some person known as "The Union" that ruined everything for these poor people?

Oh wait, the Union is the workers:surprised: You are obviously a 1)Non Union person or 2) Non involved Union person that simply pays dues. The big bad Union never does anything it's membership didn't direct it to do!!!

If you would pay attention to the context where I am using the word "union" you would notice that my reference is to all dues paying members and its leadership. They are all responsible in some way for costing the city of Indianapolis all those good paying jobs. Also, I am going to have to let you know that I fall into neither category of person that you tried to fit me into. I am a dues paying UPS teamster member for over 10 years, and I have attended the majority of my local's monthly meetings since we got a BA who gives a damn.

No friend, thats exactly what the company want's all you sheep to believe. Wake up and pull your head above water. Sometimes it helps to use your own brain instead of repeating something someone else said.

I never have, nor will I ever buy into the mentality that every penny the company makes should go to its workers. The company has every right to a profit as that is the very reason it exists, and honestly I prefer that they do because that is my best indication that I will continue to have a job in these uneasy economic times. It is you, my friend, who has bought too easily into the mantra that you should "bite the hand that feeds" when that may end up in you not getting fed.
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
Never did I say that a company should spend every penny on its work force. I do believe that the working man and woman should fight for every penny they can get and hold on to it for as long as absolutely possible. I also never said concessions were absolutely a no. What I did say is a 50% decrease is always going to be a NO, and the company knows that when its proposed. If you think the company does not play games in the public perception arena you are very wrong. They probably spent as much money paying some corporate labor lawyers to come up with this idea as what they would have saved with their proposed cuts.

I agree with the fact that some times with the fall of an economy that concessions may be necessary for the good of the whole. But I also think the company should put some incentive in the offer to make it reasonable to the Union membership. A smaller pay cut say 20% with a temporary deferral to the pension plan and the offer of shares of stock in the company in return is a much better way to get the people to swallow it. The way YRC did their concession negotiations. No one liked it but they understood the necessity of it and could still live with it.

I don't care who you are, you put a 50% pay cut in front of them and they will decline. Especially when you can make that on Unemployment and not work!!
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Never did I say that a company should spend every penny on its work force. I do believe that the working man and woman should fight for every penny they can get and hold on to it for as long as absolutely possible. I also never said concessions were absolutely a no. What I did say is a 50% decrease is always going to be a NO, and the company knows that when its proposed. If you think the company does not play games in the public perception arena you are very wrong. They probably spent as much money paying some corporate labor lawyers to come up with this idea as what they would have saved with their proposed cuts.

I also beleive the working man/woman should fight for every penny they are worth, but in todays economy you have to be realistic as to what your services are truly worth when a choice like this is to be made. I live in the area, and I have a good idea of what jobs are paying around here. Those that don't get to transfer to another plant will be lucky to get a $10/hr. job if they can find one. Not only that, but they will be working much harder, will have meager health benefits, and no pension. When they had a choice of $15.50/hr. doing a job they were familiar with that included excellent health benefits and a pension perhaps they will see what fools they truly were. Also, I highly doubt a company would risk milliions of dollars of shareholder money to pull a "practical joke" on a union. I'm betting they went in there knowing what their break even point was on labor costs along with what available jobs in the area were paying which was figured into their offer. And it really was a good offer.

I agree with the fact that some times with the fall of an economy that concessions may be necessary for the good of the whole. But I also think the company should put some incentive in the offer to make it reasonable to the Union membership. A smaller pay cut say 20% with a temporary deferral to the pension plan and the offer of shares of stock in the company in return is a much better way to get the people to swallow it. The way YRC did their concession negotiations. No one liked it but they understood the necessity of it and could still live with it.

I don't care who you are, you put a 50% pay cut in front of them and they will decline. Especially when you can make that on Unemployment and not work!!

To cut off your nose to spite your face just doesn't seem like a good option when it comes to your job. They could have taken the deal, and when the contract comes close to expiring then the union could start pushing for some decent raises to get the workers pay back up because by that point the company has skin in the game and won't want to lose their investment. In the meantime they would have to change their lifestyles, just like they are going to have to do when they are unemployed, but probably not as drastic until that day comes.
 

blue efficacy

Well-Known Member
Yes, because a 100% pay cut with no benefits or pension is so much better. I was talking to one of our newest part timers last night and learned he is a former computer programmer. When educated people are having difficulties finding jobs you know these morons are going to find it extra hard as I am betting most of them are not skilled nor educated. They wanted $29/hr, to put a hunk of metal in a machine and push a button, and in todays economic conditions it just is no longer feasible. Besides, what they were offered really wasn't all that bad.
Pot calliing the kettle black, how long will it be feasible to drive a truck and drop off and pick up boxes for $30/hr?
 

over9five

Moderator
Staff member
I guess we'lll find out in 2013 when UPS proposes a two tiered wage system for drivers with a much lower starting and top rate for newer drivers.
Man, I'm glad you're not on the Negotiating Committee! Upstate, you're caving in years before anything's even been started. We work for a very profitable company, even in a recession. Don't give up the ship!
 

brett636

Well-Known Member
Pot calliing the kettle black, how long will it be feasible to drive a truck and drop off and pick up boxes for $30/hr?

While I'm sure the company would love to cut our wages, I'm betting the largest cost increase when it comes to labor is benefits thanks to Obamacare. My guess will be they will get targeted by the company come next contract in some form or fashion.
 
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