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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 221397" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Oh, I've had my run ins with Tie as well and although I don't know of your specifics, knowing him I can understand your comments.</p><p> </p><p>Now as for CS. Your comments to which I responded just came across as "another defender of the faith" so to speak and this that wasn't the case, sorry. I've just seen so much of that especially from folks outside the CS problem. As for a majority of CS folks voting for Hoffa, I would say that is true among the CS who actually voted. When you factor in the the folks who voted for Leedham and the folks who choose not to vote, then does that majority picture still hold true? Even if this still doesn't constitute a majority, it would at least change the picture of some glowing endorsement of Hoffa IMO.</p><p> </p><p>We've had the so-called old guard running things for years and then we attempted a change in Carey and now we are back to the old guard so to speak IMO but what has really change about the union and our situation in that time? Carey for whom I voted IMO knew about the growing problem with CS but still in order to protect the system so to speak or in some ways himself, did the wrong thing and raised CS pension payouts in return of UPS' 97' pension contract offer and IMO he had to know based on the demographic numbers that down the road the piper would have to be paid and in Nov 2004' the bill came due. So in my view, whether old guard or reformers, nothing meaningful really changes and no one comes in willing to be innovative and realize that for better or worse, there is a new world of 21st century situation regarding labor/management relations and business conditions and these folks seem to me to be approaching everything from a 20th and in some cases a 19th century perspective. Are all those old ideas dead and out of date? Of course not but you also have to be willing to commit to the best interest of your membership and IMO that means exploring any and all potentials to see what they might bring. It doesn't mean you go with them but it does mean you give them open consideration and open discussion among the members. When people see and know that you considered all possibles and still when things go wrong, they are more apt at working the problem and overcoming rather than clamoring for wholesale change.</p><p> </p><p>Is CS salvagable? I would want to say yes but do I have all the facts? No. A big example of the "no" answer is how top secret CS has been with it's actuary tables to the point that people have tired going to court to get them and to my knowledge were unsuccessful but someone else may be able to give more details that I'm not aware of. I believe just after the Nov. 04' changes even Hoffa claimed he would commission his own independent actuary study but why? Can't he get this himself from CS or is he grandstanding for political points? </p><p> </p><p>You know I find it ironic that there are a few who have funds that are solely UPS funds to a certain extent and those funds are doing very well. Now that the folks in the CS region have a chance to in some way mirror those same type situations, out come the faithful to condemn the very thought that we would even do such a thing. And what's even worse is the fact that we in CS are trying to look at many options to how to best secure our own futures and we have those that would attack such efforts. I don't know how this whole thing will shake out but I do know this. Unless some major changes do take place, the fund is in such trouble that when the new federal laws come into play next year, it won't be pretty. The threat of those new laws is one of the driving factors that has forced the union and UPS to open the contract talks early to avoid a major train wreck that neither side wants to see and if it happens, both my suffer longstanding if not permanent harm and that has em' both scared.</p><p> </p><p>It just gets pretty old from our standpoint of having the company on one side knowing at any moment their plan in the longrun could be disaster and then on the otherside with CS, this too could be of equal disaster and then as we try and wade through all this BS, we got other area Nahsayers from all sides wading in the middle and mudding up the water while all we're trying to do is get the water clear enough so we can see the truth. Don't want me to bully back? Sit your butt on the shore and stay out of the water and stop mudding it up. Tells me where you see the clear spots from your perspective, I'll appreiate that, but don't hinder our efforts. When your ultimately faced with a choice IMO of following the Devil on the one hand and Satan on the other, they last thing I want to here in what comes across as one of their cheerleaders who in the end appears to really only protecting their own interest.</p><p> </p><p>Harsh words on my part? Yeah, I would agree and maybe not needed but these are harsh times so there you go!</p><p> </p><p>Wish us luck because before this is over I'm sure we are gonna need it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 221397, member: 2189"] Oh, I've had my run ins with Tie as well and although I don't know of your specifics, knowing him I can understand your comments. Now as for CS. Your comments to which I responded just came across as "another defender of the faith" so to speak and this that wasn't the case, sorry. I've just seen so much of that especially from folks outside the CS problem. As for a majority of CS folks voting for Hoffa, I would say that is true among the CS who actually voted. When you factor in the the folks who voted for Leedham and the folks who choose not to vote, then does that majority picture still hold true? Even if this still doesn't constitute a majority, it would at least change the picture of some glowing endorsement of Hoffa IMO. We've had the so-called old guard running things for years and then we attempted a change in Carey and now we are back to the old guard so to speak IMO but what has really change about the union and our situation in that time? Carey for whom I voted IMO knew about the growing problem with CS but still in order to protect the system so to speak or in some ways himself, did the wrong thing and raised CS pension payouts in return of UPS' 97' pension contract offer and IMO he had to know based on the demographic numbers that down the road the piper would have to be paid and in Nov 2004' the bill came due. So in my view, whether old guard or reformers, nothing meaningful really changes and no one comes in willing to be innovative and realize that for better or worse, there is a new world of 21st century situation regarding labor/management relations and business conditions and these folks seem to me to be approaching everything from a 20th and in some cases a 19th century perspective. Are all those old ideas dead and out of date? Of course not but you also have to be willing to commit to the best interest of your membership and IMO that means exploring any and all potentials to see what they might bring. It doesn't mean you go with them but it does mean you give them open consideration and open discussion among the members. When people see and know that you considered all possibles and still when things go wrong, they are more apt at working the problem and overcoming rather than clamoring for wholesale change. Is CS salvagable? I would want to say yes but do I have all the facts? No. A big example of the "no" answer is how top secret CS has been with it's actuary tables to the point that people have tired going to court to get them and to my knowledge were unsuccessful but someone else may be able to give more details that I'm not aware of. I believe just after the Nov. 04' changes even Hoffa claimed he would commission his own independent actuary study but why? Can't he get this himself from CS or is he grandstanding for political points? You know I find it ironic that there are a few who have funds that are solely UPS funds to a certain extent and those funds are doing very well. Now that the folks in the CS region have a chance to in some way mirror those same type situations, out come the faithful to condemn the very thought that we would even do such a thing. And what's even worse is the fact that we in CS are trying to look at many options to how to best secure our own futures and we have those that would attack such efforts. I don't know how this whole thing will shake out but I do know this. Unless some major changes do take place, the fund is in such trouble that when the new federal laws come into play next year, it won't be pretty. The threat of those new laws is one of the driving factors that has forced the union and UPS to open the contract talks early to avoid a major train wreck that neither side wants to see and if it happens, both my suffer longstanding if not permanent harm and that has em' both scared. It just gets pretty old from our standpoint of having the company on one side knowing at any moment their plan in the longrun could be disaster and then on the otherside with CS, this too could be of equal disaster and then as we try and wade through all this BS, we got other area Nahsayers from all sides wading in the middle and mudding up the water while all we're trying to do is get the water clear enough so we can see the truth. Don't want me to bully back? Sit your butt on the shore and stay out of the water and stop mudding it up. Tells me where you see the clear spots from your perspective, I'll appreiate that, but don't hinder our efforts. When your ultimately faced with a choice IMO of following the Devil on the one hand and Satan on the other, they last thing I want to here in what comes across as one of their cheerleaders who in the end appears to really only protecting their own interest. Harsh words on my part? Yeah, I would agree and maybe not needed but these are harsh times so there you go! Wish us luck because before this is over I'm sure we are gonna need it. [/QUOTE]
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