Well I'll Be! Bush Got Some Goods News For A Change

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by wkmac, Jul 11, 2007.

  1. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Well for the country it is good news so I put opinion on the cult of personalities aside and enjoy the moment!


    OK, that's more than enough time so here's the other shoe. They don't include unfunded items like the Social Security IOU's which add on another $600 bil to the deficit price tag. Now for the real kicker!

    What was the total Federal debt (no budget deficit) in 2004' and now what is it today?

    You just knew I was gonna crash and thrash the party didn't you?

    Forget the cult of personalities, ask the candidates what they intend to do about not only the deficit but what is the plan to start paying down the national debt. That IMO should be the key issue to everything because all the other issues don't prevail if the gov't has no means to pay for it.

    Think America, Think!
  2. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Man, the poor guy just can't catch a break. A day later this comes out so he's back in the doghouse.

    IMO, where Iraq was the biggest failure was that it caused the American might and focus to be taken from Afghanistan and using that as a launch point and ground zero to really go after Al Qaida globally but instead we got the bulk of our forces bogged down in Iraq playing policeman to a nationbuilding venture that mostly does benefit certain business interests whether short term or long. In the meantime, Al Qaida has had time to regroup and reform after we removed them from their main operating points in Afghanistan and now they may be more spread out and much harder to detect.

    Then again, is this all a ruse and more smoke and mirror from a gov't who has been shown time and time again to not tell the truth when it should have but has used political exploitation to it's own ends? In light of historical fact IMO, it's a legit question to consider these days.

    BTW: If you think I'm only pointing the finger at Bush or only the Repubs you obviously don't know me that well.
  3. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    Forget the cult of personalities, ask the candidates what they intend to do about not only the deficit but what is the plan to start paying down the national debt. That IMO should be the key issue to everything because all the other issues don't prevail if the gov't has no means to pay for it.

    Think America, Think![/quote]

    collect back taxes from the 12 million illegals in the country and social security from their employers.

    Then award the illegal aliens their citizenship only if they list their previous american employers. Then fine those employers heavily for employing illegal aliens.

    that should help pay it off. :thumbup1:
  4. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    On the surface that might seem like something that could really make a huge difference until you really consider it more in depth. First off, let's look at some specifics. Not all aliens don't pay taxes and in fact most do. One of the biggest beefs about illegals is their working for big companies like Walmart and yes I'll even bet UPS. Now how could they work at UPS and not pay taxes or even Walmart for that fact? How they do this is through bogus SS #'s and that SS and medicare money withheld at least at this point appears uncollectable. One of the reasons Congress has been so slow to attack this practice is that to some in Washington this is free money into a troubled system and it could help alleve the difference. SS and medicare are in some ways like our current Central States problem with growing numbers of people collecting and smaller numbers of people paying in because the core US population when you remove immigration of all types from the mix is actually strinking making the problem even greater. Remove all immigration, send everyone home at once who are not citizens and in short order the economic chaos on many fronts would be on us like stink on S~~t!

    But for the sake of argument let's take your idea and run with it and see what we come up with because maybe you really are on to something here. Just for the sake of arguement let's say all 12 mil illegals made 100k per year each. I know that's no where near the truth but bare with me a moment. And of this 100k per year let's say in total they paid out in all taxes a total of 40% meaning 40k per year. This would give an annual $480 bil influx of tax revs to the gov't but let's pretend for a minute that everyone agrees to forward these funds in total to the federal gov't. Now the Congress has $480 billion in hand annually so what do you think they would do first? Yeah I'm thinking the same thing but let's pretend again and they move all this money to the national debt.

    Currently the national debt is at $8.8 trillion and change and growing by $1.29 bil a day. Using our fresh influx of $480 bil, at the current growth rate of the debt, our $480 bil would last for a total of 372 days. OK, now we're 7 days annually to the good but hold on Houston, we have a problem. First off, we all agree that all 12 million illegals don't make 100k annually nor do they pay in 40k annually to the feds in taxes even if we were able to collect all taxes owed. Also the other problem is our current gov't is running budget deficits of as high as $400 bil annually to now around $200 bil annually.

    The bottomline Tie is sure you can collect taxes from these illegals but the key need here is for Congress and the adminstration to stop spending our money like drunken sailors. One of the reasons the repubs have lost so much ground is because they violated the principle of fiscal responsibility and have in fact made the democrats look like the fiscal conservative ones. Now I don't for a minute believe the democrats have kicked their drug habit and once they solidify power again, they will do the exact same thing the republicans did when they were given the Holy Grail of power.

    Illegals do create a number of different problems on multiple fronts but there are areas IMO they are being made scapgoats where in fact they should not be. I think this idea that all illegals don't pay taxes is just one such area.

    And BTW: Here's one to watch in the future and it will happen and I believe the Equal protection clause of the 14th amendment will be the mechanism. At some point in the future, some illegal or a group of illegals will file suit in court demanding a SS check and/or medicare coverage because they paid in. Now granted it was done under illegal means but they did pay the tax. When it happens, just remember where you heard it from and raise you beer and give me a toast!

  5. tieguy

    tieguy Banned

    I'm afraid my response was a little tongue in cheek. Thank you for the well thought response though. :thumbup1:
  6. scratch

    scratch Least Best Moderator Staff Member

    Actually Tie, I thought you had a good idea. Where I am at, we have been invaded by illegal aliens for the last ywenty years at least, just now it is so obvious. Everywhere I go I see store signs in Spanish. I'm amazed we don't have Infonotices in Spanish.:ohmy:
  7. diesel96

    diesel96 New Member

    Appearing on a half-dozen morning TV shows Thursday, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff laid out a list of factors contributing to his "gut feeling" that the nation faces a higher risk of attack this summer: al-Qaida's increased freedom to train in South Asia, a flurry of public statements from the network's leadership, a history of summertime attacks, a broader range of attacks in North Africa and Europe and homegrown terrorism increasing in Europe.

    OK,The Nation faces a higher risk of attacks from Al-Qeda this Summer from a "gut feeling" of Micheal Chertoff
  8. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Since the Battle of Tora Bora, Al Queda has faced little pressure on a broad scale IMO. Col. Hunt in his Fox News column spoke with great condemnation of the Rumy leadership and gave an excellent example of where a major strike by our military could have taken place against Al Queda in Afghanistan but instead Rumy scuttled the mission as it was about to launch from the chopper pad. :mad:

    Col. Hunt's slam of Rumy for this was well deserved and I salute Col. Hunt. It is because of more and more data coming out like what the Col. revealed that makes me think that there is some element of truth to a large Al Queda build up and it ain't in or associated with Iraq either. Chertoff it has been shown IMO to be a big boob and a failure as Homeland Security chief. I don't trust his gut feeling because I don't trust his true motive for what and how he does his job and that sadly goes for about the rest of the Bush Adminstration but then I can say I feel the same way about the Congress as well.

    Since we lost focus after Tora Bora and focused on an Iraq situation that for now has proven wasteful to a certain degree, Al Queda has had 5 years to lay low like a band of cowboy western train robbers, heal up and plan the next big hit of the goldmine's payroll. I can believe that threat potential is really out there but at the same time Al Queda has also spoken in that timeframe of using the US southern border to gain access into our country but did our leaders also respond with any real purpose in the late immigration bill to shut off that faucet? Not a drop is the correct answer. Are we being feed false data? Are we being left wide open to this potential while certain business interests are left to profit?

    Lots of questions and fuzzy answers IMO. This adminstration and Congress are showing "0" leadership in being out front on this issue and more importantly leveling on a consistant basis with the public the facts so that we are informed. Instead we get smoke and mirrors from them and when the truth comes out their cheerleaders wonder in amazement and with cat calls of libels, lefties and other mindless names because we would dare question these leaders motives when caught in mistruth after mistruth. Most people would call it lies but like Jack said in the movies with a little ad lib from me, "they can't handle the truth!" Thus they are left with only the catcalls to defend their empirical King and his courtly Lords and Barons.

  9. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member


    More links of potential interest in light of some of the comments directed at you in other threads on the subject of Iraq.




    When time allows, go to wikipedia under the Iraq War article and explore the footnotes section. Ton of good data can be found there. Also Frontline's website allows full access to view it's programming online and many of their programs on the subject are worthwhile in having more details at hand to data mine & understanding what has taken place.

    C Ya!
  10. diesel96

    diesel96 New Member

    We'll said Wkmac..."cheerleaders wonder in amazement"...it's to bad the "cheerleaders don't comprehend the content of your posts half the times or they would be catcalling you mindless names.Maybe I shouldn't simplify my posts in such laymans terms to avoid comments directed at me on the subject of Iraq.Nahh!I'll take it like a man..and dish it out a little...Anyhow I wrote a similiar post in "Is this what the war is really about" thread recently..Not as articulate as you "The Sensai" teacher.

    thx for the websites also
  11. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    OH how sweet! LOL! I think you have an admirer WKmac.
  12. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Gee, I had no idea you were the jealous type! Be a good boy and we might let you in for a 3some!
  13. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    Thanks Diesel. I've had others complain about my posts from their lenghts to the fact that many go more indepth on the subject and it is the depth that does cause the problem with the lenght. Vicious circle I guess. I just see many of these issues are not something that is so simple that a 30 sec. soundbite so to speak can say it all but that's me and others see it different and I respect that opinion. I had one poster here complain to me about my lenghty posts but then I realized one day that of my 2k plus posts here, this complainer had over 10k. I started to suggest that I was trying to catch up to that level but using an economy model but then I considered that this poster wasn't really interested in any factual info at the end of the day so I just let it go and enjoyed the humorous thoughts to myself. And besides, sometimes the lenght is more so about ruffling the feathers of some than it is about presenting any facts to the subject. :wink:

    Some of these issues are very important and with that do require thought and consideration of the facts from all sides. There's no argument that 9/11 changed America and we do face a serious threat from within the Islamic world. I find it comical when some here advocate or suggest I'm anti war because I have a friend in Australia who is professional musician who follows Sufism which is best described in some way as the mystical side of Islam or in a way like Kabbalahism is the mystical side of Judaism. My friend is a pure pacifist by all rights but because of my support of our entering Afghanistan and my support of that continuing mission there, he accuses me of being a warmonger but in a goodhearted kinda way. I guess point of view depends on how you are viewed.

    I knew the US had a history in Afghanistan from back in the 70's via covert operations supporting the Mujihadeen and even Osama bin Laden in an indirect way. As the Soviet occupation fell apart, the 2 rival factions left standing were the northern warloads who had been willing agents of the Soviet occupation and the mujihadeen who were now known by the name of the Taliban. The US gov't actually backed the Taliban and it was those efforts that helped them secure power. One of the reason for this support was the anti-poppy policy of the Taliban who our gov't felt would control the opium production of Afghanistan so much of the thinking was based on US drug policy and not so much what was in the best interest of the afghans. Saw article yesterday where poppy production for opium set a new record this year. This is also why the hues and crys to rid Iraq of Saddam because of human rights abuse reasons fall on deaf ears with me because the US can on a dime turn and then support a gov't neck deep in such violations as they backed the Taliban. We even supported Saddam in the 80's because of Iran and I always find it funny that we supported not only a Sunni gov't over a Shia gov't because the Shia IMO are the moderate thinkers when it comes to religious doctrine but the Baathist are a purely socialist political entity and once very friendly with the Soviets.

    It is the Sunni from which Wahhabism comes that birthed Al Queda and all the 9/11 attackers were Sunni and the majority of them were from Saudia which is supposedly our friend. Ron Paul spoke very well of the consequences of our actions and some of this is prime examples of what Paul was talking about.

    Early on I in some sense supported the war with Iraq but kinda on a different level. I felt it was in some sense our mess that we made but I also felt one of the reasons that Cheney and Rumy wanted to go in was to hide the fact, and I still believe this, that much of the pre 1991' wmd that Saddam had would also have a "made in America" stamp on it and the last thing these guys wanted was from the UN inspectors to find this stuff with our label and parade that before the world. Conspiratorial I know, grassy knoll stuff, but history is loaded with this type of intrigue so there you go. This sword had a double edge and at the time I did think one side was sharper than the other.

    IMO gov't is a business and they will do whatever it takes to protect that business as has been shown over time, again IMO. But as time went on and I read more and more not from the anti war factions but rather I went and read from pro war, neo-conservative groups like American Enterprise Institute, Project for a New American Century or I even researched the 1996' report prepared by Richard Perle for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called "A Clean Break:A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" which among other things promoted the idea of a new Middle East based on western values but also an elimination of the Iraq gov't via the US military along with other western powers. The ultimate goal was to secure the State if Israel and it's means of doing so crossed along many fronts. Now this is not some obscure document passed around some dark corridors but you can find it on the Israeli political group's website know as Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies who commisioned Perle to create the report and here's the link. https://web.archive.org/web/20060416082235/http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

    I also went back and read a lot about the post WW1 international agreements that broke up the old Ottoman empire mostly to the control of the English and French and the lies and mess they themselves created that have finally manifested today into the Middle East problem and it was then as I learned more and more about the actual details, most from the policy makers themselves that my support for the Iraq adventure began to quickly turn to the point that our current course is wrong and we need a new direction. I am wholeheartedly and proudly anti-policy as it pretains to the current decisions of the policy makers in Washington. The military by the Constitution is barred from setting policy as this is left to the elected civilian officials and it is their decisions that I question and opposed. If in some people's minds that is anti-war then the problem is their's and not mine.

    I've posted a ton of this stuff before here and even suggested to all that they go to these pro-war, neo conservative sites and read what is being said by these policy wonks who dictate and control federal policy. Col. Hunt at Fox News is by no means anti-war but he has publically been critical of Rumy and some of the decision processes going on and I've linked that as well just recently. I've also suggested learning about the situation after the fall of the Ottoman empire in this region and also learning about the Sunni's, the Shia and even the centuries old war they have fought against each other to this day. You also have to understand the impact of old Persian thought verses Saudia thought and oh yes this is a huge factor in all of this.

    But I dare say it appears to me that no one or at best very few ever do. And I'm cool with that but when you won't research a subject that is of such vital importance to America and then do nothing but resort to childish name calling and one line soundbites heard yesterday on the latest talkshow of entertainers posing as deep thinkers whose job it is to make statements on the air that would prevoke people to call the show in order to create an entertainment value to make advertising dollars and thereby gain a good living, what does that really say about you? Very Lazy is one thought that comes to mind!

    Diesel, if you and I sat down and shared what we thougth the federal gov't should look like, I'm pretty certain we'd walk away in strong disgreement. I'm an anti-federalist to the point that I advocate abolition of the Constitution and a return to the Articles of Confederation. Oh yeah, I know it's radical but so were men like Patrick Henry and Lysander Spooner who advocated the same if not something similar. Even Thomas Jefferson had his doubts about the Constitution but only supported after the Bill of Rights were added and even with some distrust. My guess if able to see today he'd have stood shoulder to shoulder with Henry. My guess is that you are not nearly that radical in belief and the vast amount of Americans are with you so the majority is clear. But for the moment we have Free speech so I'll exercise much to the wailing and gnashing of teeth of others including many here I'm sure.

    I'm sure I'll get the catcalling for writting "ANOTHER" thesis and that's fine but I just wanted to share "OH NO, SHARE IS A LIBERAL TERM!" with you more specifically where I was coming from in much of this. I've always enjoyed history as to my wife's hatred I aced almost without effort or study in school and have over the years had a keen interest in as I just enjoy the subject and learning from the successes and failures of others. If only I could have done that well in math!:laugh:

    You know, it's ironic that those here who support the current Iraq effort could find a lot more "meat for their sandwich" and make the discussion more interesting if they would take the time to read some of the neo-conservative websites that I mentioned. I guess they think their hero Fred Thompson gets all his info from the talkshows so it would appear they will continue to not do any legwork or effort so there you go! I guess it's that lazy factor again.

    c ya around diesel

    BTW: I also made sure I bumped up to the 10k character limit just so I piss em' off!
  14. diesel96

    diesel96 New Member

    Originally Posted by big_arrow_up
    OH how sweet! LOL! I think you have an admirer WKmac.
    Wkmac,you must have that Ronald Reagon Teflon shield! LOL..
    Sometimes the "cheerleaders"don't get it the first time....you got to spell it out for them. Give me a "L" Give me a "I" Give me a "E" Give me a "S"..What's that spell?........BUSH!
  15. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    Give me an "S"! Give me a "P"! Give me an "I"! Give me an "N"! Give me a "E"! Give me an "L"! Give me an "E"! Give me a "S"! Give me an "S"! WHAT'S THAT SPELL??? TRETOROUS LIBERALS!
  16. brazenbrown

    brazenbrown New Member

    There are plenty of other websites, in fact how about this guy for your Libertarian pleasure!! LARRY ELDER

    You know I don't have a problem with making the discussion interesting but I don't think giving you a 10k drama is my style. As far as links to support, that ain't a problem.:)

    I love Larry and agree with him 85% of the time, but I guess I'm just a Neo Con fascist !!:tongue_sm

    I've got plenty of meat in my sandwich and as far as legwork it don't take me 10k to say what I need to..:wink:

    As far as any hero's...I haven't made up my mind yet but I sure won't be voting for more government and the socialization of this County. That leaves the dems out, Yeah, I know the repubs aren't a whole lot better..

    That's getting to the point my friend!!:laugh: Hey history buff... It certainly is history by the time I finish reading one of your posts!!:lol:

    Now go listen to some ELP and relax LOL:laugh:
  17. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    You mean you actually read all that Bullschitt? Every word? And I thought I was crazy for wasting the time writting it! Maybe we both need to visit the doctor because obviously we've very SICK! :lol:

    ELP? Maybe Tarkus or Trilogy but after that is just gets to commerical for me. Actually from back in the day give me some Peter Gabriel era Genesis like Foxtrot or their best album of all Sellling England By the Pound!

    Also check out Neal Boortz who is also libertarian but very pro Iraq war and very vocal about it. Another guy on the libertarian vein I like but rarely hear is Jay Severnson or something to that effect out of the Boston area. He's subbed for Neal several times and I like him as well.

    and you're probably neo con fascist lite. You've just not grown enough yet to be the real deal but there's always hope!
  18. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    I think I have listened to Neal Boortz show before. Not too bad.

    And speaking of the devil...this ticks me off.

    Last edited: Jul 20, 2007
  19. wkmac

    wkmac Well-Known Member

    That's really old news. Neal has been saying that for quite a while now and several Islamic groups have spoken out about it. It's quite comical if you happen to be listening when he goes off on this tangent and somebody calls to take him to task on it. I remember in the 97' UPS strike where Neal was just slamming the Teamsters and UPS IBTers were calling the show and talk about great comedic radio. And to make it even better was on the strike line, the union leadership were instructing the members to not listen to Neal's show and boy did he had a field day with that. It was classic Boortz.

    Neal has always been up front that he's a BS artist and also that something in his show everyday is absolute BS and he's waiting for the callers to catch him in it. Rarely happens I might add. I've always respected that upfront honesty about Neal that at least with the other talkshow hosts, I've never heard that point expressed. Maybe they have and I never heard it but at the same time my schedule just doesn't allow me to listen to much of that format anyway so I say that to be fair to other hosts who may have also been that upfront.

    Great classic radio? Do a word search on Boo Got Shot>Royal Marshall and get ready to just fall down and ROTFLyourAO.
  20. Overpaid Union Thug

    Overpaid Union Thug Well-Known Member

    He kind of reminds me of Michael Savage in the way he goes off about things. I may be mistaken but I think Neal comes on our local station but isn't part of the regular lineup. Below is a link to the station I listen to 99.9% of the time when I'm driving and usually while I'm online. It's a pretty good lineup. I actually wish they'd add a host with leftist points of view because I like listening to both sides but I doubt that will happen anytime soon. The stations is clearly conservative but you should have heard them bashing Bush after he spoke at Opryland yesterday.