When The Tea Party Demonstrates for Bigger (Mo' Money) Gov't

[wkmac]

Less Gov't? Lower Taxes? Ridding ourselves of the Income Tax and the "evil" IRS? Seems the Tea Party folks in Florida didn't get the memo and are now advocating President Obama use the mechanism of gov't to use force and coersion to extract property (income) from others so a select few in Florida can continue to benefit.

Even the Tea Party is not immune from using gov't for the purpose of wealth redistribution!

Let repeat the Tea Party Motto, all together now:

"Down with those dirty liberal commie socialists who run things!"

 

[bbsam]

Don't forget the second part of the motto: "Long live the neo-con fascist pigs who run things (when the Republicans get back into power)."

 

[wkmac]

Don't forget the second part of the motto: "Long live the neo-con fascist pigs who run things (when the Republicans get back into power)."

As opposed to the Neo-Liberal Fascist pigs who run things? That war thing you know and why is the evil Patriot Act among other things are still in play from the Bush era? If it was so aweful then, why the utter silence now? Oh that evil Bush guy! And how is it that backroom deals with big pharma/big healthcare and select insurance giants under the grand illusion called healthcare is saving the little guy from the big guy?

I never bought the "Obama is a Marxist/Communist" line as his actions pointed more that he was a corporatist or some hybridization there of. Besides, when you plug in a real honest liberal next to the Big O the obvious just jumps out of the page at you. But if you look at the Neo-Cons, they are the exact same thing so there you go!



All things said, your point is still very correct!

 

[wkmac]

Good ole' Corporatism


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmipZ4-PAc4

The Hamilton Project produces research and policy proposals on how to create a growing economy that benefits more Americans. The Hamilton Project’s economic strategy reflects a judgment that long term prosperity is best achieved by making economic growth broad-based, by enhancing individual economic security, and by embracing a role for effective government in making needed public investments.

1)Who lobbies and wins the day on the targets of gov't investment?
2)Who lobbies but loses the day on the targets of gov't investment?

more importantly

3)Does the fear by many of the Tea Party movement really boil down to fear of how the gov't might change it's role in public investment?
4)Looking another way then at the Tea Party movement and considering the original story that started this thread, will the Tea Party stop gov't completely from it's role of investing to effect the public good?

If the answer to Q3 is yes and the answer to Q4 is no, other than deciding if the money spent should be for what's behind curtain #1, curtain #2 or curtain #3 there in no other real difference between the 2 so therefore how can one be an out and out communist if the other is not also?

Cenk Uygur spent more time in the Young Turks vid pointing at the money men during the Clinton and now the Obama years and I applaud him for it but let's not forget Bush's claim to shame in the Wall Street nightmare with this guy too.

Let's see, Clinton did it, Bush did it, Obama now doing it, Bush 1 did it, Reagan did it, are we seeing a trend and pattern yet? And one guy is suppose to be a communist and the other isn't?

Mr. Spock would you be so kind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q6KzDhugDA&feature=related

 

[bbsam]

In my own defense, I will point out two things.
A. You don't get to call the liberals "commie socialists" and "Neo-Liberal fascist pigs" do you?
B. My post put "when the Republicans get back in power" in parenthesis suggesting your point that the two are very much the same. Down with the pigs we hate and long live the pigs who more closely associates themselves with what we want.

 

[wkmac]

"In your own defense?" You mean to defend your ideal of empowering a selected heirarchy to tell everyone what to do, often against their will and self determination, while those with whom you disagree spend time and energy trying to do the very same thing? If the Tea Party adovates extracting property, in this case conversion of labor into a monetized form, from larger society to benefit a few down in Flordia at NASA, how is that any different than extracting property from people for other reasons, even noble ones? It's sad both sides are in truth huge advocates and cheerleaders for "Crony Capitalism" yet both fail to understand their symbiotic position as host to the very same parasite that feeds off both of them.

If they (Tea Party Repub backers) are fascists doing exactly what you are doing, a desire to control a central authority to direct it's purpose and mission, then why are you not also a fascist too? If an arsonist uses matches and 5 gallons of gas to start a fire to destroy property, do we call someone else starting a fire to destroy property who uses dry straw and flint something else? Dumb arsonist maybe?


To those like you who in some measure oppose the Tea Party (only because they see Republican) and to those who love the Tea Party (only because they see against democrat) I leave you both with this:

Voluntaryism is the doctrine that relations among people should be by mutual consent, or not at all. It represents a means, an end, and an insight. Voluntaryism does not argue for the specific form that voluntary arrangements will take; only that force be abandoned so that individuals in society may flourish. As it is the means which determine the end, the goal of an all voluntary society must be sought voluntarily. People cannot be coerced into freedom. Hence, the use of the free market, education, persuasion, and non-violent resistance as the primary ways to change people's ideas about the State. The voluntaryist insight, that all tyranny and government are grounded upon popular acceptance, explains why voluntary means are sufficient to attain that end.

Violence is never a means to knowledge. As Isabel Paterson, explained in her book, The God of the Machine, "No edict of law can impart to an individual a faculty denied him by nature. A government order cannot mend a broken leg, but it can command the mutilation of a sound body. It cannot bestow intelligence, but it can forbid the use of intelligence." Or, as Baldy Harper used to put it, "You cannot shoot a truth!" The advocate of any form of invasive violence is in a logically precarious situation. Coercion does not convince, nor is it any kind of argument. William Godwin pointed out that force "is contrary to the nature of the intellect, which cannot but be improved by conviction and persuasion," and "if he who employs coercion against me could mold me to his purposes by argument, no doubt, he would.. He pretends to punish me because his argument is strong; but he really punishes me because he is weak." Violence contains none of the energies that enhance a civilized human society. At best, it is only capable of expanding the material existence of a few individuals, while narrowing the opportunities of most others.

Fundamentals of Voluntaryism

 

[tieguy]

Interestingly enough a true libertarian would probably love the concepts of a grass roots group protesting an excess of government. Shall we group you with the liberals that feel threatened by the tea party movement?
Is your flaming liberal slip showing again?

 

[diesel96]

Wkmac....we got it, you make valid arguments exposing the hypocracy of the current 2 party juggernauts. But it is my belief not one philosophical entity can stand alone in the world we live in today with such an enormous populas. Not even the self centered, Individualism philosophy can enter a phone booth as Clark Kent and exit as Superman.
JMHO, But I don't buy arguing that the welfare of society is best served when every individual seeks his or her own advantage without reguard to any overreaching safety-net, or scheme of goodness or justice. When individuals are left to their own devices, their system may posess self adjusting quality that ensures their maximum satisfaction, but at what expense of society are you willing to degrade and endanger. Having said that, it has become obvisously painful that turning to our Big brother Gov't as public watchdog sentinals has become a futile effort as well. As much promise as the prophet Obama wants change, is it becoming apparent they're not really in control, just puppets on a string coerced by the great corperation...Let's also be fair, this Adm did not start with a clean slate, there comes a responsibility to cleaning up the mess your predessor starts, even if it includes spending on "emergency mearsures" and extending unpopular policies. Question is will these spenditures and unpopular policies cease if and when we turn the corner....Only time will tell, and time is not on their side...


http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v5n1/homepage.html


"One way of summing up the difficulty Americans have in understanding the fundamental roots of their problems is to say that they still have a Lockean political culture, emphasizing individual freedom and the pursuit of individual affluence (the American dream) in a society with a most un-Lockean economy and government. We have the illusion that we can control our fate because individual economic opportunity is indeed considerable, especially if one starts with middle class advantages; and our political life is formally free. Yet powerful forces affecting the lives of all of us are not operating under the norm of democratic consent. In particular, the private governments of the great corporations make decisions on the basis of their own advantage, not of the public good. The federal government has enormously increased its power, especially in the form of the military industrial complex, in ways that are almost invulnerable to citizen knowledge, much less control, on the grounds of national defense. The private rewards and the formal freedoms have obscured from us how much we have lost in genuine democratic control of the society we live in."

Tie, says your Liberal slip is showing.....How further from the truth that is. I think it's time for more "barking dog" videos for him...lol

 

[diesel96]

Tea Party folks in Florida

BTW wkmac..How right you are exposing this hypocracy... This just goes to show, that even if this President advocates a Tea-Bagger narrative, they openly perform a Romney-isk flip-flop purely based on hate and not on principles....

 

[tieguy]

Wkmac....we got it, you make valid arguments exposing the hypocracy of the current 2 party juggernauts. But it is my belief not one philosophical entity can stand alone in the world we live in today with such an enormous populas. Not even the self centered, Individualism philosophy can enter a phone booth as Clark Kent and exit as Superman.
JMHO, But I don't buy arguing that the welfare of society is best served when every individual seeks his or her own advantage without reguard to any overreaching safety-net, or scheme of goodness or justice. When individuals are left to their own devices, their system may posess self adjusting quality that ensures their maximum satisfaction, but at what expense of society are you willing to degrade and endanger. Having said that, it has become obvisously painful that turning to our Big brother Gov't as public watchdog sentinals has become a futile effort as well. As much promise as the prophet Obama wants change, is it becoming apparent they're not really in control, just puppets on a string coerced by the great corperation...Let's also be fair, this Adm did not start with a clean slate, there comes a responsibility to cleaning up the mess your predessor starts, even if it includes spending on "emergency mearsures" and extending unpopular policies. Question is will these spenditures and unpopular policies cease if and when we turn the corner....Only time will tell, and time is not on their side...


http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v5n1/homepage.html


"One way of summing up the difficulty Americans have in understanding the fundamental roots of their problems is to say that they still have a Lockean political culture, emphasizing individual freedom and the pursuit of individual affluence (the American dream) in a society with a most un-Lockean economy and government. We have the illusion that we can control our fate because individual economic opportunity is indeed considerable, especially if one starts with middle class advantages; and our political life is formally free. Yet powerful forces affecting the lives of all of us are not operating under the norm of democratic consent. In particular, the private governments of the great corporations make decisions on the basis of their own advantage, not of the public good. The federal government has enormously increased its power, especially in the form of the military industrial complex, in ways that are almost invulnerable to citizen knowledge, much less control, on the grounds of national defense. The private rewards and the formal freedoms have obscured from us how much we have lost in genuine democratic control of the society we live in."

Tie, says your Liberal slip is showing.....How further from the truth that is. I think it's time for more "barking dog" videos for him...lol

Diesel I don't think wkmac gave you permission to speak here. You're supposed to post movie clips. ROFLMAO

there is a hysteria on the left that tembles in fear of the tea party that is getting to be entertaining as heck. Looks like it even sucks in an occasional libertarian.

 

[tieguy]

Wkmac....we got it, you make valid arguments exposing the hypocracy of the current 2 party juggernauts. But it is my belief not one philosophical entity can stand alone in the world we live in today with such an enormous populas. Not even the self centered, Individualism philosophy can enter a phone booth as Clark Kent and exit as Superman.

Note how the great tea bagger basher now laments the perils of a two party system. This after he has vehemently attacked the grass roots effort that could actually develop into a third choice but would of course run head to head with his beloved democratic leadership.

keep in mind this is all fluff. The great tea bag basher was previously given instructions by his puppet master to post movie clips to supplant his lack of credible dialogue. That tactic now failed the great tea bag basher now attempts to draw his puppet master in to save his overwhelmed behind.

time to pop some popcorn and warm some butter and eagerly await the apperance of diesels puppet master. what new tactic will the great puppet master now employ in order to once again restore his puppet as a viable liberal force.

 

[wkmac]

Diesel,

I wholeheartedly agree that one single system can't stand alone and thus not only a reason to discuss some form of voluntarist means, notice I said discuss, across a larger societal framework. I do think America is to big geographically and population wise and for this one reason among others is why it's not working. I also believe others on both sides of the political isle are understanding this and thus some of the sucession talk beyond the majority who use the idea for political effect.

As to someone entering a phonebooth in a Clark Kent/Superman deal, I think the people who really hold to that belief are actually those voters locked into a democrat/republican state solution in that voting for a new emperor will somehow play the role of Superman and save the day. If I were one of those voters I might take exception to what I just said but the fact that in every Presidential election cycle the majority of voters look to each party to give them a savior if you will whether it be an African American man or a good ole girl whose a plain spoken salt of the earth. Democrats have their horse but republicans are as we speak looking for their own American Idol who can shame Simon and WOW the audience. Regardless of principles or past record, we even become immersed in meaningless debate over whether they wore a flagpin or saluted in a manner we hold as proper. A Superman is pure myth so there you go.

This afternoon Bill Moyers Journal was quite interesting although I missed some of it. It speaks a bit towards much of what you said about "puppet on a string."

As to being called a liberal, in the classical sense of 18th and 19th century tradition, I consider that claim an honor and would very much agree with it. What would really chap many here is if they found out I joined a group called "Libertarians Against Capitalism". Now go and figure that one out!


As to having my permission to speak in any thread I post, I never realized I had such authority. Holding to an anarcho philosophy of "No Ruler" I immediately depose myself of such or any power so post away!

As for "gland Cleaning" I'm enjoying things as they are right now so I'm very content to just enjoy the comedy of it all.

 

[tieguy]

As to being called a liberal, in the classical sense of 18th and 19th century tradition, I consider that claim an honor and would very much agree with it. What would really chap many here is if they found out I joined a group called "Libertarians Against Capitalism". Now go and figure that one out!
:

Was not very difficult to figure out. liberals have always been against capitalism. Nothing new there.

 

[diesel96]

NYT/CBS poll ....Oooooh scary, 18 % of Americans identify themselves as TeaBaggers. Liberals are trembling in their tree hugger boots....lol
You do realize that will probably hurt the GOP more than any other party......ruff ruff

Here's some Kibbles n' Bits for you to chew on :

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/04/tea-party-bears-becks-imprint.html


Your viewpoints, reflect the general tone of FOX News, who implys that Obama is socialist, Marxist, or extremely liberal, but are often caught in a chain of lies for providing evidence for those claims. The tea-partiers, likewise, are deeply distrustful and in fact quite angry at government, but have more trouble at putting their finger on exactly why. This latest NASA proposal proves that point.....

And now, it may be time for a flea dip, it sure seems like flea's are getting under your skin lately...

Even with a pocket full of snausage bait, Puppet master "WKMAC" has never instructed myself or anyone else here to post videos or beg for one's censorship like your's truly. As if he is the last person around here who poses as an authoritarian. Mr V for Vendetta, no way. As usual, like a good Tea Party grass root extremist, mis-charactorizing individuals due to the lack of creditable dialog themselves....Still waiting for yours and the TeaParty's creditable flip-flop response to expand gov't for NASA, and why you suggest Reagan/Bush meet the Tea-Party's principles.....Oh that's right, their principles and leadership are not really that clear.....What more do you expect when the likes of Beck, Hannity, Palin, and Bachman heading up your campaign....

 

[bbsam]

Once again: Down with the pigs we hate and long live the pigs we more closely identify with. Yes, I'm quite satisfied with that. I can live with the blatant self-serving truth without dressing it up in noble idiocy.