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Workers are enslaved, exploited and under attack
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<blockquote data-quote="22LR" data-source="post: 570412" data-attributes="member: 24005"><p>Been there. </p><p></p><p>It's completely capitalist. </p><p></p><p>The means of production are in private hands. </p><p></p><p>Wage-slavery is alive and well. If you're not born into one of the few families which owns a part of the means of production you have two choices (1) sell your labor to a capitalist for a wage (2) starve. </p><p></p><p>Workers are exploited. They are only given a percentage of the wealth they create. The capitalists they work for keep the rest.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>After the proletarian revolution, when workers control production and organize it according to meeting human need, regular people will have more, not less.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only if you're a post modernist that changes the meaning of terms as they go along. </p><p></p><p>In reality capitalism is a system in which the means of production are owned by a minority of the population. Since they own those means, the rest of us (besides farmers, artisans, and shop keepers) have no way to survive other than working those means of production in exchange for payment that is less than what we create. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>After the proletarian revolution we will have more incentive. If I work as a package handler at UPS I get paid the same if I sort 1000 boxes or 5000 boxes per shift. When we control production collectively, according to a plan we work out ourselves, an increase in my productivity will mean an increase in goods for myself and everyone else. </p><p></p><p>It's interesting to note that the longest lasting form of society in human history (so far) was primitive communism. That lasted tens of thousands of years. Capitalism has been around for a few hundred. </p><p></p><p>But every system falls apart. History is not static. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, north Korea isn't a "communist state." </p><p></p><p>The phrase "communist state" is a contradiction in terms. Communism, as defined by communists, is a stateless. No country anywhere, ever in history, has claimed to have reached communism. </p><p></p><p>The bureaucrats in charge in north Korea raise the claim in a few official documents that their country is in the transition toward communism, but that's no more true than claims by capitalists and their representatives in government that we're all "in the same boat" in the United States (ie. that we all suffer equally from this economic crisis). </p><p></p><p>If you're really interested in discussing the history of Korea and nature of the north Korean state I'd be more than happy to. I doubt you are though. It seems you'd rather just lazily throw around some tired old slander. </p><p></p><p>By the way, even if the type of society that existed in north Korea were what I was advocating why that mean I should go to north Korea instead of fighting to bring it into existence here? </p><p></p><p>Would you have told Thomas Paine to go to France or John Brown to go to Haiti? </p><p></p><p>That "love it or leave it crap" is completely reactionary and hopeless. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is "marxist propaganda" [sic] a label you can apply to something to automatically discredit it?</p><p></p><p>“A struggle is going on in all the nations of the civilized world, between the oppressors and the oppressed of all countries, a struggle between the capitalist and the laborer, which grows in intensity from year to year, and will work disastrous results to the toiling millions, if they are not combined for mutual protection and benefit.” - AFL Preamble 1886-1955</p><p></p><p>More "marxist propaganda"?</p><p></p><p>But guess what?</p><p></p><p>The number one selling book in Japan right now is a book by a communist about exploited sailors who mutiny against their captain and take over the ship. The number one selling comic book in Japan right now is an illustrated version of "Capital" by Karl Marx. The fastest growing party in Japan is the Communist Party. </p><p></p><p>The number one selling book in eastern Germany is "Capital" by Karl Marx. </p><p></p><p>One of the top search terms on Google recently (by people in the US) is socialism.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free you have to be acutely aware of being a slave." - Assata Shakur</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, feelings and reality don't necessarily correspond. </p><p></p><p>Some people "feel" that angels are among us. </p><p></p><p>In reality, no matter your job, if you are a worker you are exploited. That's how capitalism works. Not even its (honest) -defenders deny this.</p><p></p><p>You're not paid the full value of your labor. If you make $1000 worth of candy bars each day are you given $1000? No. And who gets the portion of the value you created that is denied to you (surplus value)? The capitalist you sell your labor to. </p><p> </p><p><img src="http://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/images/cartoon01.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A young reporter asked a leading capitalist how he made his fortune. "It was really quite simple", the capitalist answered. I bought an apple for 5 cents, spent the evening polishing it, and sold it the next day for 10 cents. With this I bought two apples, spent the evening polishing them,and sold them for 2O. And so it went until I amassed 80. It was at this point that my wife's father died and left us a million dollars". <a href="http://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/docs/what_is_marxism.php" target="_blank">=)</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Freedom for the capitalists sure. Freedom for the majority of the population? No. If you don't sell your labor to a capitalist (thus making them even richer) you starve. </p><p></p><p>The number of workers that are able to become capitalists is negligible. You have a much, much better chance of dying from an accident on the job. Of course that doesn't stop the supporters of a decaying system from using the "American Dream" argument to defend their positions.</p><p></p><p>"The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm a package handler at the UPS hub in Secaucus. What choices do I have over how that place is run (not to mention UPS as a whole or parcel delivery in general)? How about any of my coworkers? </p><p></p><p>What choice does a child born to a single mother who makes less than a dollar a day in Uganda have?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="22LR, post: 570412, member: 24005"] Been there. It's completely capitalist. The means of production are in private hands. Wage-slavery is alive and well. If you're not born into one of the few families which owns a part of the means of production you have two choices (1) sell your labor to a capitalist for a wage (2) starve. Workers are exploited. They are only given a percentage of the wealth they create. The capitalists they work for keep the rest. After the proletarian revolution, when workers control production and organize it according to meeting human need, regular people will have more, not less. Only if you're a post modernist that changes the meaning of terms as they go along. In reality capitalism is a system in which the means of production are owned by a minority of the population. Since they own those means, the rest of us (besides farmers, artisans, and shop keepers) have no way to survive other than working those means of production in exchange for payment that is less than what we create. After the proletarian revolution we will have more incentive. If I work as a package handler at UPS I get paid the same if I sort 1000 boxes or 5000 boxes per shift. When we control production collectively, according to a plan we work out ourselves, an increase in my productivity will mean an increase in goods for myself and everyone else. It's interesting to note that the longest lasting form of society in human history (so far) was primitive communism. That lasted tens of thousands of years. Capitalism has been around for a few hundred. But every system falls apart. History is not static. Sorry, north Korea isn't a "communist state." The phrase "communist state" is a contradiction in terms. Communism, as defined by communists, is a stateless. No country anywhere, ever in history, has claimed to have reached communism. The bureaucrats in charge in north Korea raise the claim in a few official documents that their country is in the transition toward communism, but that's no more true than claims by capitalists and their representatives in government that we're all "in the same boat" in the United States (ie. that we all suffer equally from this economic crisis). If you're really interested in discussing the history of Korea and nature of the north Korean state I'd be more than happy to. I doubt you are though. It seems you'd rather just lazily throw around some tired old slander. By the way, even if the type of society that existed in north Korea were what I was advocating why that mean I should go to north Korea instead of fighting to bring it into existence here? Would you have told Thomas Paine to go to France or John Brown to go to Haiti? That "love it or leave it crap" is completely reactionary and hopeless. Is "marxist propaganda" [sic] a label you can apply to something to automatically discredit it? “A struggle is going on in all the nations of the civilized world, between the oppressors and the oppressed of all countries, a struggle between the capitalist and the laborer, which grows in intensity from year to year, and will work disastrous results to the toiling millions, if they are not combined for mutual protection and benefit.” - AFL Preamble 1886-1955 More "marxist propaganda"? But guess what? The number one selling book in Japan right now is a book by a communist about exploited sailors who mutiny against their captain and take over the ship. The number one selling comic book in Japan right now is an illustrated version of "Capital" by Karl Marx. The fastest growing party in Japan is the Communist Party. The number one selling book in eastern Germany is "Capital" by Karl Marx. One of the top search terms on Google recently (by people in the US) is socialism. "The less you think about your oppression, the more your tolerance for it grows. After a while, people just think oppression is the normal state of things. But to become free you have to be acutely aware of being a slave." - Assata Shakur Again, feelings and reality don't necessarily correspond. Some people "feel" that angels are among us. In reality, no matter your job, if you are a worker you are exploited. That's how capitalism works. Not even its (honest) -defenders deny this. You're not paid the full value of your labor. If you make $1000 worth of candy bars each day are you given $1000? No. And who gets the portion of the value you created that is denied to you (surplus value)? The capitalist you sell your labor to. [IMG]http://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/images/cartoon01.gif[/IMG] A young reporter asked a leading capitalist how he made his fortune. "It was really quite simple", the capitalist answered. I bought an apple for 5 cents, spent the evening polishing it, and sold it the next day for 10 cents. With this I bought two apples, spent the evening polishing them,and sold them for 2O. And so it went until I amassed 80. It was at this point that my wife's father died and left us a million dollars". [URL="http://www.nyu.edu/projects/ollman/docs/what_is_marxism.php"]=)[/URL] Freedom for the capitalists sure. Freedom for the majority of the population? No. If you don't sell your labor to a capitalist (thus making them even richer) you starve. The number of workers that are able to become capitalists is negligible. You have a much, much better chance of dying from an accident on the job. Of course that doesn't stop the supporters of a decaying system from using the "American Dream" argument to defend their positions. "The reason they call it the American Dream is because you have to be asleep to believe it." - George Carlin I'm a package handler at the UPS hub in Secaucus. What choices do I have over how that place is run (not to mention UPS as a whole or parcel delivery in general)? How about any of my coworkers? What choice does a child born to a single mother who makes less than a dollar a day in Uganda have? [/QUOTE]
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