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<blockquote data-quote="vantexan" data-source="post: 5411668" data-attributes="member: 24302"><p>Didn&#039;t fall for anything.&nbsp; At the end of the day, no matter what political party uses what to their perceived advantage, the Russians invaded and killed a lot of innocent civilians.&nbsp; People here try to make like the atrocities were staged by the Ukrainians to make the Russians look bad.&nbsp; There may well have been some of that, but let&#039;s get off this idea that the Russians are just driving around in their military vehicles waving to everyone and nobly only engaging in combat with uniformed Ukrainians.&nbsp; They are brutalizing the civilian population in an effort to break the Ukrainians&#039; will to fight.&nbsp; And people like you are saying that you aren&#039;t on the ground so there&#039;s no way to know if that&#039;s true.&nbsp; That&#039;s apologetics.&nbsp; That&#039;s a big CYA.&nbsp; And you&#039;re embarrassed that you thought the Russians were going to easily win and the Ukrainians were only being propped up by the West to their detriment.&nbsp; Wrong.&nbsp; The Ukrainians are trying to maintain their sovereignty and are reaching for any lifeline that will help them keep it.&nbsp; And are doing a damn fine job on their own fighting the invaders.&nbsp; So what narrative did you fall for that makes you believe the Russians only want the Donbas?&nbsp; I certainly believed they wanted that at the start of this, with a strip of land from there to the Crimea.&nbsp; If that&#039;s all they wanted Putin could have just rolled troops into those areas and held them.&nbsp; With supply lines uninterrupted from Russia.&nbsp; No, he wants it all.</p></blockquote><p></p>

[QUOTE="vantexan, post: 5411668, member: 24302"] Didn't fall for anything. At the end of the day, no matter what political party uses what to their perceived advantage, the Russians invaded and killed a lot of innocent civilians. People here try to make like the atrocities were staged by the Ukrainians to make the Russians look bad. There may well have been some of that, but let's get off this idea that the Russians are just driving around in their military vehicles waving to everyone and nobly only engaging in combat with uniformed Ukrainians. They are brutalizing the civilian population in an effort to break the Ukrainians' will to fight. And people like you are saying that you aren't on the ground so there's no way to know if that's true. That's apologetics. That's a big CYA. And you're embarrassed that you thought the Russians were going to easily win and the Ukrainians were only being propped up by the West to their detriment. Wrong. The Ukrainians are trying to maintain their sovereignty and are reaching for any lifeline that will help them keep it. And are doing a damn fine job on their own fighting the invaders. So what narrative did you fall for that makes you believe the Russians only want the Donbas? I certainly believed they wanted that at the start of this, with a strip of land from there to the Crimea. If that's all they wanted Putin could have just rolled troops into those areas and held them. With supply lines uninterrupted from Russia. No, he wants it all. [/QUOTE]

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