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Gibson Guitars Raided By Feds
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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 873768" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>Sleeve,</p><p></p><p>It may well be true that the law was broken by suppliers to Gibson and it is true that a similar event happened a couple of years ago in which Gibson is currently in court sueing to get back it's property. However, this is equally true. Gibson based on the 2009' raid was charged with no crime, no arrests were made, no fines levied, no day in court and yet the federal gov't came in and seized property for which at this point no crime is charged, maybe even alleged. </p><p></p><p> Now whether Gibson is innocent or not, this can be debated but from the standpoint of a legal precedence to the broader population, the gov't under color of law can seize property on the grounds a crime is alleged but no crime is ever charged? How do we square this with the 4th amendment or does that even matter any more? I allege you might have been looking at child porn so on those grounds I seize your computer, never give it back nor do I ever charge you with any crime. Are we not all at risk with such draconian, star chamber law enforcement? Was it not similar conditions that prompted a group of radicals to form cells that came to work and organize together to overthrow such political powers and they felt in important enough to put down something called the 4th amendment in the hopes that it wouldn't happen again? Seems they overlooked some details it would appear!</p><p><img src="/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/FeltTip/wink.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":wink2:" title="Wink :wink2:" data-shortname=":wink2:" /></p><p></p><p>But the article you posted raises an even greater and deeper question. From the article:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As in the previous case, no charges have been filed meaning no charges existed at the time of the raid but there is an allegation that Gibson may have violated an Indian Export Law. So the US Federal State is now the enforcement arm of a foreign nationstate? In the realm of legal precedence, think about that.</p><p></p><p>This has also had a chilling effect on owners of various instruments including Les Paul owners but it's not just them either as other companies use both Ebony and Rosewood too. As a drummer, you know many kits have their shells made of maple (not an effected would, yet!) but this would still not exclude a larger threat to percussionists. Marimba's (a percussion instrument) most often have Rosewood keys so they could easily be effected depending on how far they want to go. A Friday night football game halftime show might change as so many marching bands could lose a major instrument out of their pit. There have been cases where some instruments of private owners during the course of transport have had instruments seized, even with paperwork filed to grandfather in vintage instruments. There is a lot of uncertainty but just unclear at the moment if it's warranted or not.</p><p></p><p>Whether Gibson here is knowingly guilty or just a case of stupidity for not changing suppliers after the 2009' raid is open for debate but IMO far larger questions are at hand with the legal precedence and ramifications being most important to consider.</p><p></p><p>jmo</p><p></p><p>BTW: The more I read about this case, the more I think it's about labor and not about green which is part of my point in earlier posts.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 873768, member: 2189"] Sleeve, It may well be true that the law was broken by suppliers to Gibson and it is true that a similar event happened a couple of years ago in which Gibson is currently in court sueing to get back it's property. However, this is equally true. Gibson based on the 2009' raid was charged with no crime, no arrests were made, no fines levied, no day in court and yet the federal gov't came in and seized property for which at this point no crime is charged, maybe even alleged. Now whether Gibson is innocent or not, this can be debated but from the standpoint of a legal precedence to the broader population, the gov't under color of law can seize property on the grounds a crime is alleged but no crime is ever charged? How do we square this with the 4th amendment or does that even matter any more? I allege you might have been looking at child porn so on those grounds I seize your computer, never give it back nor do I ever charge you with any crime. Are we not all at risk with such draconian, star chamber law enforcement? Was it not similar conditions that prompted a group of radicals to form cells that came to work and organize together to overthrow such political powers and they felt in important enough to put down something called the 4th amendment in the hopes that it wouldn't happen again? Seems they overlooked some details it would appear! :wink2: But the article you posted raises an even greater and deeper question. From the article: As in the previous case, no charges have been filed meaning no charges existed at the time of the raid but there is an allegation that Gibson may have violated an Indian Export Law. So the US Federal State is now the enforcement arm of a foreign nationstate? In the realm of legal precedence, think about that. This has also had a chilling effect on owners of various instruments including Les Paul owners but it's not just them either as other companies use both Ebony and Rosewood too. As a drummer, you know many kits have their shells made of maple (not an effected would, yet!) but this would still not exclude a larger threat to percussionists. Marimba's (a percussion instrument) most often have Rosewood keys so they could easily be effected depending on how far they want to go. A Friday night football game halftime show might change as so many marching bands could lose a major instrument out of their pit. There have been cases where some instruments of private owners during the course of transport have had instruments seized, even with paperwork filed to grandfather in vintage instruments. There is a lot of uncertainty but just unclear at the moment if it's warranted or not. Whether Gibson here is knowingly guilty or just a case of stupidity for not changing suppliers after the 2009' raid is open for debate but IMO far larger questions are at hand with the legal precedence and ramifications being most important to consider. jmo BTW: The more I read about this case, the more I think it's about labor and not about green which is part of my point in earlier posts. [/QUOTE]
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