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<blockquote data-quote="smapple" data-source="post: 1498594" data-attributes="member: 55535"><p>I was talking about working hard as a payoff in the longterm since working hard isn't something you just do out of the blue, it's an attitude you carry with you no matter what you do and where you go. </p><p></p><p>"Market forces for setting a practical price on labor" just means setting price for practical reasons like if it takes me as an employee $20 in gas to drive to work then I'm not going to work for anything less than at least $50 per day. However if the work is only paying $30 then I'll have to commute via public transportation or carpool. The "market" in this example is the environment that the employer and employee have to work within and the "practical price on labor" is the agreement on wage, basically what the employer is willing to pay and what I'm willing to be paid to do the work.</p><p></p><p>Terms like "free market" and "capitalism" along with other economic and political terms assume certain things. These two terms specifically assume that no one is being coerced to take action and cheating the system is penalized with force. If people are being forced at the point of a gun to participate or cheating the system is rewarded rather than penalized, then it's no longer "free market" or "capitalism". That being said, there is no system of economics or government that inherently prevents degradation into the worst outcome, which is why the economic woes in Greece, Spain, France, etc. were expected. Capitalism, like other economic models, will concentrate wealth into specific groups if consumers/voters stop caring about who they shop from. So yes, capitalism is democratic, you just vote with your dollars and where you put your labor efforts. I've already mentioned other ways to influence your employer or become the employer yourself. And yes, free market is supposed to include certain things which we don't have, hence we don't have a free market which is why current problems aren't a result of the free market. A better description of what's going on would mercantilism or corporatism. The way to have shared resources isn't to force people with taxes through the government (why would you expect corrupt people to respect your interests?) it's to promote a culture of sharing within your local community. </p><p></p><p>Like I said, gonna have to agree to disagree about this blow back myth. </p><p></p><p>But consumers do have the power not to buy from Walmart. I'm poor as hell and I do it, haven't gone there in forever and actively discourage my friends and family from going there too and avoid franchises like the plague. And not because they're evil corporations, but because there're other people who run businesses that need that money. The problem is the general public just doesn't care as long as the product is cheap and decent, which has more to do with the general attitude of the culture rather than economics or government. </p><p></p><p>If i remember right Orwell described himself as a democratic socialist, which I think is nuts since I have my own gripes against democracies and intersecting that with socialism sounds like throwing garbage into a tornado. I said he'd still be wrong because he and many socialists seem to believe that people are either inherently or tend towards "good" when history and experience contradicts those assertions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="smapple, post: 1498594, member: 55535"] I was talking about working hard as a payoff in the longterm since working hard isn't something you just do out of the blue, it's an attitude you carry with you no matter what you do and where you go. "Market forces for setting a practical price on labor" just means setting price for practical reasons like if it takes me as an employee $20 in gas to drive to work then I'm not going to work for anything less than at least $50 per day. However if the work is only paying $30 then I'll have to commute via public transportation or carpool. The "market" in this example is the environment that the employer and employee have to work within and the "practical price on labor" is the agreement on wage, basically what the employer is willing to pay and what I'm willing to be paid to do the work. Terms like "free market" and "capitalism" along with other economic and political terms assume certain things. These two terms specifically assume that no one is being coerced to take action and cheating the system is penalized with force. If people are being forced at the point of a gun to participate or cheating the system is rewarded rather than penalized, then it's no longer "free market" or "capitalism". That being said, there is no system of economics or government that inherently prevents degradation into the worst outcome, which is why the economic woes in Greece, Spain, France, etc. were expected. Capitalism, like other economic models, will concentrate wealth into specific groups if consumers/voters stop caring about who they shop from. So yes, capitalism is democratic, you just vote with your dollars and where you put your labor efforts. I've already mentioned other ways to influence your employer or become the employer yourself. And yes, free market is supposed to include certain things which we don't have, hence we don't have a free market which is why current problems aren't a result of the free market. A better description of what's going on would mercantilism or corporatism. The way to have shared resources isn't to force people with taxes through the government (why would you expect corrupt people to respect your interests?) it's to promote a culture of sharing within your local community. Like I said, gonna have to agree to disagree about this blow back myth. But consumers do have the power not to buy from Walmart. I'm poor as hell and I do it, haven't gone there in forever and actively discourage my friends and family from going there too and avoid franchises like the plague. And not because they're evil corporations, but because there're other people who run businesses that need that money. The problem is the general public just doesn't care as long as the product is cheap and decent, which has more to do with the general attitude of the culture rather than economics or government. If i remember right Orwell described himself as a democratic socialist, which I think is nuts since I have my own gripes against democracies and intersecting that with socialism sounds like throwing garbage into a tornado. I said he'd still be wrong because he and many socialists seem to believe that people are either inherently or tend towards "good" when history and experience contradicts those assertions. [/QUOTE]
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