Right to Work,

[Jones]

*yawn*

 

[Old International]

Are you enjoying the raises you have gotten during this recession? Do you think you would have gotten them if they weren't garunteed by our contract? UPS is a solid company but not a generous one. How many times have you heard a member of management spitfully refer to how much they pay you. Do you think they respect as a professional who's services add value to the company or consider you a worthless machine. Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As bad as it gets around here, if you think your life at UPS would be better without the union stop kidding yourself.

Yup. I would be doing better then what the union could get for me. I am a solid employee, I know what it takes to get the job done, and I think on my feet, and respond to changing conditions. If we didn't have the unions, we would have merit based performance raises, and I am sure that we would have some sort of profit sharing plan.

 

[Old International]

Anyone can see how little UPS puts away for its people by examining the UPS Pension Plan. That's the plan that covers UPS part-timers in the Central States region. UPS runs the fund and has for decades. When it comes to providing for part-time retirees, the fund is pitiful.

More recently UPS created a new fund just for UPS full-timers in the Central States region. It's pension accrual rates are lower than any Teamster sponsored fund.

The Teamsters didn't fund (or underfund) Central States, employers, like UPS, did. All the Teamsters could do is try to negotiate higher contribution rates by companies like UPS. They can't make UPS agree to those higher rates. Besides, rather than shore up the fund, UPS, the largest employer, withdrew from Central States, thus further damageing the fund's financial health.

INCORRECT. UPS did the buy out to protect what little we did have left. The old Central states plan was riddled with payout to employees who companies had gone belly up, and PISS POOR management of the money left over. Remember the contract before UPS bought out the plan? How it went thru so easy? And then 9 months later, when we all found out that the fund was being cut to the bone because of no money? UPS had gone back to the union, and told them that the funding was low, and that we needed to take less of a wage increase, so we could get more into the fund? And the union said" You let us worry about that"? So UPS went ahead, and while we got a great wage package, we took it in the ass on the retirement. That little "hiccup" means I will have to work an extra 4 years.

 

[rod]

Yup. I would be doing better then what the union could get for me. I am a solid employee, I know what it takes to get the job done, and I think on my feet, and respond to changing conditions. If we didn't have the unions, we would have merit based performance raises, and I am sure that we would have some sort of profit sharing plan.

I don't agree with that. When the only product you have to "sell" is service and all UPS seems to care about is numbers then I believe UPS would work toward less pay, more performance and in the end more profit sharing for just those on the top of the pyramid. UPS is not one of those feel good, lookout for the employee type of companies. Never has been and never will be. Without the Union UPS would just be another Fedex and we all know how happy those guys are. But then again if you had to buy your own packages cars maybe you could paint them something other that that god awful brown.

 

[UPSSOCKS]

Yup. I would be doing better then what the union could get for me. I am a solid employee, I know what it takes to get the job done, and I think on my feet, and respond to changing conditions. If we didn't have the unions, we would have merit based performance raises, and I am sure that we would have some sort of profit sharing plan.

You are correct.. The union bleeds the company dry and makes it impossible to recognize and reward the good employees. If their was no union we would have more very wealthy employees. Since the bad teamsters outnumber the good, everyone has to suffer.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

SCB, aka pablocarlos, is a hardened anti-union troll that goes around website forums with union discussion and plays the contrarian in every debate for negative attention. Check out Teamster.net forum.

If there is someone to NOT waste your breathe on, it is that troll.

Now I am really laughing....

I thought there was a similar posting style....

SCB or whatever her new name is....

Was management....

Couldn't make the grade.... Cut the mustard.... Got fired....

Has more smarts than us dumb truck drivers.


-Bug-

 

[Ibt804Hammer]

You are correct.. The union bleeds the company dry and makes it impossible to recognize and reward the good employees. If their was no union we would have more very wealthy employees. Since the bad teamsters outnumber the good, everyone has to suffer.

Let's not forget how or why the union was started @ UPS sock puppet.

 

[Ibt804Hammer]

Yup. I would be doing better then what the union could get for me. I am a solid employee, I know what it takes to get the job done, and I think on my feet, and respond to changing conditions. If we didn't have the unions, we would have merit based performance raises, and I am sure that we would have some sort of profit sharing plan.

Yea, ok...

 

[bigblu 2 you]

You are correct.. The union bleeds the company dry and makes it impossible to recognize and reward the good employees. If their was no union we would have more very wealthy employees. Since the bad teamsters outnumber the good, everyone has to suffer.

this company bleeds itself and without union help and would in no wise reward good employees{e.g. safe driving awards,years of service,profit share matching like most large and successful companies,christmas turkeys,etc}now go spend millions on goofy commercials and nascar and follow drivers around to see if they maintain a brisk pace.

 

[JonFrum]

Decide for yourself what percentage of UPS management people have nasty attitudes towards "hourlies."

Decide what percentage of management would "eat their own."

Decide what percentage feel they themselves are not appreciated, and have been mistreated by upper management, and perhaps by labor as well.

Now realize a part of every dollar in UPS revenue is up for grabs. It can go into management's paychecks and pension and health insurance plans, OR it can go into the pockets of those "hourlies."

How would you expect management to divvie up those dollars between Management and Labor if they didn't have to negotiate it first with a union?

How much of the pie would "hourlies" get if, say, UPSSOCKS was doing the deciding?

 

[UPSSOCKS]

Decide for yourself what percentage of UPS management people have nasty attitudes towards "hourlies."

Decide what percentage of management would "eat their own."

Decide what percentage feel they themselves are not appreciated, and have been mistreated by upper management, and perhaps by labor as well.

Now realize a part of every dollar in UPS revenue is up for grabs. It can go into management's paychecks and pension and health insurance plans, OR it can go into the pockets of those "hourlies."

How would you expect management to divvie up those dollars between Management and Labor if they didn't have to negotiate it first with a union?

How much of the pie would "hourlies" get if, say, UPSSOCKS was doing the deciding?

If i were deciding you would get as much pie as you earn. The hard dedicated workers would be wealthy and the lazy workers would get what they deserve.

Instead the union protects the worthless employees and thinks it is "fair" to pay them the same wage as the hard working men and women that keep the company running.

What if everyone made minimun wage and everything else was based on merit? Can you imagine how much cheaper your dues would be. Your bonus would not be subject to dues being taken out. The union wouldn't let it ever be this way because your piece of the pie would get larger and their piece would get smaller...

 

[bigblu 2 you]

Decide for yourself what percentage of UPS management people have nasty attitudes towards "hourlies."

Decide what percentage of management would "eat their own."

Decide what percentage feel they themselves are not appreciated, and have been mistreated by upper management, and perhaps by labor as well.

Now realize a part of every dollar in UPS revenue is up for grabs. It can go into management's paychecks and pension and health insurance plans, OR it can go into the pockets of those "hourlies."

How would you expect management to divvie up those dollars between Management and Labor if they didn't have to negotiate it first with a union?

How much of the pie would "hourlies" get if, say, UPSSOCKS was doing the deciding?

squat.

 

[JonFrum]

If i were deciding you would get as much pie as you earn. The hard dedicated workers would be wealthy and the lazy workers would get what they deserve.

Instead the union protects the worthless employees and thinks it is "fair" to pay them the same wage as the hard working men and women that keep the company running.

What if everyone made minimun wage and everything else was based on merit? Can you imagine how much cheaper your dues would be. Your bonus would not be subject to dues being taken out. The union wouldn't let it ever be this way because your piece of the pie would get larger and their piece would get smaller...

First you would have to divide the pie: Management vs Hourly. What exact percent would you give the Hourlies?

Then you would divide the Hourly portion of the pie between the Good Workers and the Bad. What percent would you consider Good? A naieve worker may assume you would regard 95% of the workers as Good, and just want to shortchange the lazy, worthless, more-trouble-than-their-worth 5%. But maybe you secretly (or not so secretly) think only 5% are Good, and it's the bottom 95% that are no-good, greedy, union scum.

So UPSSOCKS, be specific. What percentage of us would get higher wages and benefits than we get now, and what percentage would get lower? And how much higher or lower?

And would we get an even smaller slice of the pie if you and your management partners mismanaged the Company, or would you man-up and absorb the loss on your end?

 

[TechGrrl]

Yup. I would be doing better then what the union could get for me. I am a solid employee, I know what it takes to get the job done, and I think on my feet, and respond to changing conditions. If we didn't have the unions, we would have merit based performance raises, and I am sure that we would have some sort of profit sharing plan.

You are dreaming....in any negotiation between one single person and a corporate entity, the one single person loses. Look around at any non-union company, and notice how much better people are paid and how much better the benefits are at those companies. (That was sarcasm, BTW)

I'm not going to claim that unions are perfect, nor that some adjustments need to be made for today's world, but you are living in a fantasy world. Your approach would work in a small company where your individual performance actually makes a difference to the company's success. But as just one of 200,000 (or whatever the number is) drivers at UPS, losing you affects UPS not at all. They would just say, "See ya!" and hire the next one in line....

 

[soberups]

Guys;

Lastly, "JonFrum": I'm going to bail out of BrownCafe for a while, giving you an opportunity to fabricate yet another story about so-and-so being banned from forum such-and-such. Go for it, guy! Never let anything as insubstantial as the truth stand in the way of a good yarn! After all, isn't that what the vaunted Teamster "integrity" is all about?

Have a good one, people......

Try not to let the door hit you in the ass on the way out......

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

You are dreaming....in any negotiation between one single person and a corporate entity, the one single person loses. Look around at any non-union company, and notice how much better people are paid and how much better the benefits are at those companies. (That was sarcasm, BTW)

Google?

 

[TechGrrl]

Google?

Google, as well as other technology companies, hire the best of the best. Like, people with IQs in the 200's. Their product is pure creativity, not something that can be done by anyone off the street. I have several friends who went through the hiring process at Google. Getting a job at Google is like getting a starting job in the NFL or MLB. Only a very, very few have the talent it takes to be successful in that venue. And get paid for that talent.

And that job description does not fit the vast majority of jobs in Corporate America. You simply can't compare the jobs at Google with the jobs at UPS; only a few of the best IT professionals at UPS would be successful at Google.

 

[over9five]

..... only a few of the best IT professionals at UPS would be successful at Google.

Hoax?

 

[TechGrrl]

Hoax?

I don't know Hoax personally, so I couldn't judge....my comments were based on the folks I knew personally. Hoax may very well be one of those people.

OTOH, since UPS IT tends to stifle much creativity and outside the box thinking (primarily because upper management is too insecure to listen to people smarter than them) many of the people who would be Google-ready have either left already or never bothered to sign up. UPSers are definitely a self-selecting bunch. You have to have a very high tolerance for complete and utter B.S., and the creativity to work around the worst of the Catch-22 nonsense that any large bureaucracy is prone to.

Note that UPS is neither better nor worse than any comparably sized US corporation in this regard. Our favorite saying, while dealing with chaos: "We could be working for a POORLY managed company!"

 

[TechGrrl]

If i were deciding you would get as much pie as you earn. The hard dedicated workers would be wealthy and the lazy workers would get what they deserve.

Instead the union protects the worthless employees and thinks it is "fair" to pay them the same wage as the hard working men and women that keep the company running.

What if everyone made minimun wage and everything else was based on merit? Can you imagine how much cheaper your dues would be. Your bonus would not be subject to dues being taken out. The union wouldn't let it ever be this way because your piece of the pie would get larger and their piece would get smaller...

Define "merit"; particularly in jobs where performance is a subtle thing. For a hub worker, will you define it strictly as % of the IE calculated pieces per hour? For a driver, will it be defined strictly as over-allowed? Even for these relatively straightforward (notice I did not use the word SIMPLE) operational jobs, a smart, hardworking person can be stuck in an inherently lousy position. So they get screwed?

Real-world example: when I was a newly hired hubrat on the Primary Unload, I noticed that my supervisor insisted that I have the same unload pieces per hour on two very different trailers: One was what I called the "coffeepot trailer" which had about 3,000 identically sized boxes containing coffee pots, which could easily be loaded onto the takeaway belt 3 at a time. The other was the "muffler trailer", which came from an auto plant, and was full of mufflers and attached tailpipes, each of which needed to be individually walked out of the trailer to the bulk belt. So, which time was I being hard working, and which time was I being lazy? Or was my supervisor being stupid? Worse, what happens when he compares my productivity on the muffler trailer to the guy on the coffeepot trailer, and threatens to fire me for not meeting standards? That actually happened, by the way, since the doofus didn't believe women should be working at UPS, and figured that was a good way to prove it. (I outlasted him by 33 years.....)

When I was an IE with a time study board, it didn't take me long to realize that the drivers that never broke a sweat, but did everything by the methods were the ones that generally came in underallowed. Whereas the running, sweating, "hard working" drivers generally came in overallowed, because they made so many mistakes in methods that the only way to come even close to completing their workday was to run run run.

Now let's move on to not-so-straightforward jobs: anything that requires something that can't be defined with a time study. I spent most of my career in knowledge-based jobs, and we constantly struggled with UPS' attempt to use IE defined processes on jobs that don't have processes.

Example: UPS rewards firefighters who love to fix crises. It has no way to reward people who are smart enough to make sure there are never fires to fight. The example I used was this: UPS loves the hero who puts out the fire underneath the hub. It ignores the person who insures that the oily rags and newspapers are never allowed to accumulate into a fire hazard. I judged my people on the fact that we never had to have a crisis review, because they were smart enough to head trouble off at the pass, and it never came to fruition. Since our area of responsibility required that the computer systems operated at 99.999% uptime, you can see why this was important.

Operational management jobs are not all alike, either. There were buildings, centers, hubs, preloads, that never, ever ran well, no matter how often a new "hero" was sent in to fix them. After the third or 4th time, you would think that upper management would step back and figure out that there was a SYSTEMIC problem in place that a "hero" couldn't fix. Sometimes something as simple as the fact that the feeder schedules sucked, and the preload simply couldn't go down on time without some district three interstates over fixing a schedule.

How would YOU measure these things?