An Attack on Free Speech

[Fighting4yourRights]

I would like to hear Mr. Savage's tirade on the truths about the Christians. Let's take a few examples fromt he Bible.

1. Wives submit to your husbands.(kind of sucks for women).

2. "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days. (Leviticus 12:5)

3."Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (I Corinthians 14:34-35) (Another wonderful scriptures for the ladies)

4."If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Taken out of context or with plenty of room for interpretation these verses do not cast such a lovely glow over Christianity. It is not so hard to be as big a jerk as Savage. If you don't mind putting aside any kindness that you might possess in your soul.

Athena, today you are a senior member. Relinquish your power!!!!

 

[Fighting4yourRights]

Athena, today you are a senior member. Relinquish your power!!!!

Wow! I am too. Go figure. Time to celebrate with scantily clad women and champaign!

 

[athena]

Athena, today you are a senior member. Relinquish your power!!!!

I thought I still had a decade or two before I was considered a "senior member" of a community.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Here is a solution for anyone offended by his words....TURN THE RADIO DIAL TO ANOTHER CHANNEL! LOL! Hey...there is always NPR. And for the boycott.....

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/927
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59133

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I would like to hear Mr. Savage's tirade on the truths about the Christians. Let's take a few examples fromt he Bible.

1. Wives submit to your husbands.(kind of sucks for women).

2. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (Leviticus 12:2)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (Leviticus 12:5)[/FONT]

3."Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (I Corinthians 14:34-35) (Another wonderful scriptures for the ladies)[/FONT]

4."If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (Luke 14:26)[/FONT]

Taken out of context or with plenty of room for interpretation these verses do not cast such a lovely glow over Christianity. It is not so hard to be as big a jerk as Savage. If you don't mind putting aside any kindness that you might possess in your soul.

You are forgetting, or more likely purposely omitting, the fact that mainstream Christianity has chosen to exclude such archaic beliefs from their values. Islam, INCLUDING so called "moderate Muslims", still cling to such archaic practices. Hence the harsh treatment of their women and strict punishment for a broad range of religious and non religious crimes. There aren't many videos on the net of Christians stoning gays to death but there are plenty of videos of Muslims committing such atrocities. Do I even need to mention beheading videos? Does these things represent all Muslims? Of course not. You are trying to paint the picture that Christianity is still clinging to beliefs that today are considered harsh and archaic. Well, compare Christianity as a whole to Islam and you'll find that Christianity has moved ages ahead of Islam on that scale. Is Christianity perfect? Probably not but it seems to have jumped ages ahead of Islam when it comes to human rights. Savage realized this years ago. When will you? To call him a jerk for publicly stating these facts is crazy. I don't see how any true American, whether they like him or not, could be against Savage in this case.

 

[diesel96]

­­More than 50 evangelical leaders have signed a paper affirming a statement on the family adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in June…98'
The husband should “love his wife as Christ loved the church,” it says. “He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect and to lead his family.”
The SBC statement also addresses the wife, who is “to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ.”…
Among those signing the paper, which reads, “I affirm the statement on the family issued by the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention,” were:
Prison Fellowship founder Chuck Colson.
Promise Keepers founder Bill McCartney.
National Religious Broadcasters President Brandt Gustavson.
Gov. Mike Huckabee of Arkansas.

What... (doubletake) Huckabee ? Gender discretion ? Archaic ?
Ok, It's not perfect, and certainly not like the injustices occuring in the middle east and in Asia, but don't act like discrepencies don't occur here with some evangelicals and some hardline Christian followers.
I trust, the above statement is a fairly orthodox statement of the Christian view of marriage. And is Huck going to be able to plead that after having put his name to a statement explicitly affirming this particular bit of doctrine? Huck’s signing up here specifically for wives as subordinates. Is this sort of thing going to come up if he’s the nominee and some voters are going to wonder about it if he can’t explain it to their satisfaction. He’s reaping plenty of benefits from his religious stature; these are going to be the costs. Which may explain why he’s reluctant to publish his old sermons.

 

[wkmac]

Here is a solution for anyone offended by his words....TURN THE RADIO DIAL TO ANOTHER CHANNEL!

Good point Big, to avoid being offended you can turn the radio dial.

Hey wait a minute, if that's true in this case and I think you are right on point, then are you willing to apply this same premise to other areas?

If people are engaging or expressing themselves in ways that you personally don't believe is morally right for example but they do so within the confines of their own private homes or do so in such ways that you can't see it other than to play the part of a peeping tom and this is all done among perfectly free to choose conscenting adults with no minors whatsoever involved, then does this also mean you would object to the gov't outlawing their activity because it crosses your own moral line of what is right?

Interesting question is it not? How far are we all willing to just "turn the dial!" I happen to believe we should "turn the dial" but I'm curious as to where you would stop that process if it were up to you? And please, anyone else's opinion on this is more than welcomed as I'd like to see what everyone on this thinks. I honestly think Big raised a good point on this.

 

[wkmac]

The husband should “love his wife as Christ loved the church,” it says. “He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect and to lead his family.”

For whatever reason I can't fathom, God looked down on my lowly existence and blessed me with the greatest woman on earth as we've been together 32 years. Now I'm no beacon of the perfect husband at all and have made many the mistake but years ago I heard a preacher talk about the commandment of "wives be submissive to the husband" but that was only to open the salvo as he went further to explain that any wife who violated this commandment was forced to do so by her husband and it was he that was the root cause. Now that caught a lot of stern male eyes but after the sermon I absolutely agreed with him. He then spent the rest of the sermon going indepth on the very point D made above.

If a man places his wife and her wellbeing first and foremost, places loyality to her above all else, gives up everything for her and places the family that comes from that union first and foremost, then obedience if you will, comes naturally in return and is not seen as being obedient or submissive is a slavish, dominant kind of way but rather as a true partnership based on love and complete devotion to one another.

It's a lesson I learned early on and although like everyone, you make mistakes but even so it's seen as just making a wrong choice rather than a motive of evil intent. In other words, your heart isn't judged because your mind choose box A instead of box B or C.

Sorry to get off point but your comment just made me think of one of the most important lessons IMO to be found in the Bible when it comes to a relationship between 2 people. You may now continue to rip one another apart over Mike Savage!

 

[athena]

Nice try. First, I have heard reference to both 1 and 4 as current practices. Perhaps it isn't mainstream or as harsh as it seems but they certainly have not been abandon.

Second, as you state, that the "beheadings" etc do not represent all Muslims. In reality, it does NOT represent MOST Muslims. Savage mentions a verse in the Koran that says if you come across a stranger who is not Muslim you should convert him/her or kill him/her. How many Muslims do you know (outside of the small radical minority) that actually follow this practice? Savage assumes because it is in the Koran then the Muslims are throwbacks and follow such a practice. The point I was making it that there are verses in the Bible that can be seen as just as bad but are no longer followed. To assume such about Christians is just as ludicrous as assuming the same for Muslims.

Third, ever heard of David Koresh? How about Jim Jones and the People's Temple (Jonestown just in case you are unsure)? Let's stop pretending that Christianity doesn't have its radical subgroups as well.

Fourth, you assume that Christianity "moving ahead" is a good thing. But didn't God say he was the same now and forever? So it is okay to interpret the Bible however it will most benefit us and what we desire?

You have taken an American view of the situation without consideration to the fact that the "truths" Savage speaks may just be interpretations of what he wants you to believe. I think Savage is a jerk b/c he feels the need to spread a message of hate NOT truths. In my experience, most men/women who have to scream like a mad person to get a message across is probably missing some essential reality of the situation. I am pretty sure God did not expect us to be intolerant of differences or He would have made us all the same. But hey, it is entertaining.

P.S. Thanks for the advice but I didn't really need you to tell me to turn the station. I just hope other sensible people do the same.

 

[athena]

wkmac,

I agree with what you are saying. This is how I view the scriptures as well. I was just saying, if taken out of context, it is easy to see the way it can be misinterpreted.

Now back to our previously scheduled program...uh..debate.

 

[satellitedriver]

If a man places his wife and her wellbeing first and foremost, places loyality to her above all else, gives up everything for her and places the family that comes from that union first and foremost, then obedience if you will, comes naturally in return and is not seen as being obedient or submissive is a slavish, dominant kind of way but rather as a true partnership based on love and complete devotion to one another.
:

wkmac,
I live under the same state of Grace with my wife of 30yrs.
I do not deserve her, but I do place her first and foremost above all.
Back to thread;
I listen to NPR in the morning.
Savage in the evening.
PAX

 

[brett636]

Nice try. First, I have heard reference to both 1 and 4 as current practices. Perhaps it isn't mainstream or as harsh as it seems but they certainly have not been abandon.

Second, as you state, that the "beheadings" etc do not represent all Muslims. In reality, it does NOT represent MOST Muslims. Savage mentions a verse in the Koran that says if you come across a stranger who is not Muslim you should convert him/her or kill him/her. How many Muslims do you know (outside of the small radical minority) that actually follow this practice? Savage assumes because it is in the Koran then the Muslims are throwbacks and follow such a practice. The point I was making it that there are verses in the Bible that can be seen as just as bad but are no longer followed. To assume such about Christians is just as ludicrous as assuming the same for Muslims.

Third, ever heard of David Koresh? How about Jim Jones and the People's Temple (Jonestown just in case you are unsure)? Let's stop pretending that Christianity doesn't have its radical subgroups as well.

Fourth, you assume that Christianity "moving ahead" is a good thing. But didn't God say he was the same now and forever? So it is okay to interpret the Bible however it will most benefit us and what we desire?

You have taken an American view of the situation without consideration to the fact that the "truths" Savage speaks may just be interpretations of what he wants you to believe. I think Savage is a jerk b/c he feels the need to spread a message of hate NOT truths. In my experience, most men/women who have to scream like a mad person to get a message across is probably missing some essential reality of the situation. I am pretty sure God did not expect us to be intolerant of differences or He would have made us all the same. But hey, it is entertaining.

P.S. Thanks for the advice but I didn't really need you to tell me to turn the station. I just hope other sensible people do the same.

Wow, you are really suffering from a case of denial. Do you really think those 4 versus in the bible are anywhere near equivalent to how the Koran says to handle "non-believers" or "infidels"? Or how about the muslims treatment of women? homosexuals? You see, its not only small radical groups of muslims, but entire muslim populations who follow and believe these archaic practices. Leaders of muslim countries like the president of Iran believe in these archaic ways of life. They are throwbacks, and there is no other way to describe it. I agree that not all muslims are this way, but a good majority of those that live in the middle east do as well as some that live in this country.

When was the last time you saw a Christian rally calling for the execution of a teacher who allowed her class to name a teddy bear Jesus? When was the last time you heard of a Christian suicide bomber going into public places in the middle east just to blow themselves up and to take as many innocent souls with them as they can? Have you ever heard Christians, or any followers of any other religious faith other than islam, call for the death of the pope? the destruction of isreal? the destruction of America? Have you ever wondered why there seems to be no shortage of suicide bombers in muslim dominated regions? This is no religion of peace, and if you still believe it is I've got some ocean front property in Nebraska I can sell you cheap.

I'm not a terribly religious person, but I do find it odd that muslims base their entire religion on sex. Being promised 72 virgins in heaven seems like a nice little treat, but I've never heard of other religions promising sexually related gifts after death.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Wow, you are really suffering from a case of denial. Do you really think those 4 versus in the bible are anywhere near equivalent to how the Koran says to handle "non-believers" or "infidels"? Or how about the muslims treatment of women? homosexuals? You see, its not only small radical groups of muslims, but entire muslim populations who follow and believe these archaic practices. Leaders of muslim countries like the president of Iran believe in these archaic ways of life. They are throwbacks, and there is no other way to describe it. I agree that not all muslims are this way, but a good majority of those that live in the middle east do as well as some that live in this country.

When was the last time you saw a Christian rally calling for the execution of a teacher who allowed her class to name a teddy bear Jesus? When was the last time you heard of a Christian suicide bomber going into public places in the middle east just to blow themselves up and to take as many innocent souls with them as they can? Have you ever heard Christians, or any followers of any other religious faith other than islam, call for the death of the pope? the destruction of isreal? the destruction of America? Have you ever wondered why there seems to be no shortage of suicide bombers in muslim dominated regions? This is no religion of peace, and if you still believe it is I've got some ocean front property in Nebraska I can sell you cheap.

I'm not a terribly religious person, but I do find it odd that muslims base their entire religion on sex. Being promised 72 virgins in heaven seems like a nice little treat, but I've never heard of other religions promising sexually related gifts after death.

You might find this interesting.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59171

 

[av8torntn]

Second, as you state, that the "beheadings" etc do not represent all Muslims. In reality, it does NOT represent MOST Muslims. Savage mentions a verse in the Koran that says if you come across a stranger who is not Muslim you should convert him/her or kill him/her. How many Muslims do you know (outside of the small radical minority) that actually follow this practice?

I have met a couple hundred that try to follow this practice.

 

[Jones]

Most religions look pretty strange to people on the outside.
Christians apparently worship a zombie (rose from the dead and stumbled out of his tomb after 3 days or so...), and then there's that whole cannibalism thing where they eat his flesh and drink his blood on a regular basis.

Islam is clearly a violent religion if you take the Koran literally, but the real problem is that religion is such a powerful, dominant social institution in many middle eastern countries. Go back three or four hundred years, to when the church had similar power in the west, and christianity was pretty capable of giving the muslims a run for their money in the atrocity department (witch burnings, the Inquisition, crusades, etc).

I think the long term answer is education and individual empowerment, both of which played a big part breaking the hold that religion institutions had over populations in the west.

When you're illiterate and living under a dictatorship, religious faith is often the only thing you have to believe in, and it's a situation that pretty clearly breeds extremism.

 

[Babagounj]

This lawsuit has been updated to include the RICO act.
Which means that CAIR is / has been run as a criminal organization .
Given the history and comments of its founding members that charge will be proven quite easily.

 

[wkmac]

This lawsuit has been updated to include the RICO act.
Which means that CAIR is / has been run as a criminal organization .
Given the history and comments of its founding members that charge will be proven quite easily.

Now that is real interesting because the RICO Act came into being in the 70's to battle the Mob but in the 80's and 90's was expanded and used to fight various hate groups and so-called tax protest groups. What made this even more interesting at the time was many of these groups were called political actions groups and I know we can all roll our eyes at that one but to some degree it stuck.

Seems now the precedence in the case of CAIR is set so they can raise RICO but again, to my understanding this is a civil case, not criminal but you know this case will be watched. I'm a bit concerned about expanding RICO in areas of the political with regard to speech but we crossed that threshold 20 plus years ago. Be interesting to see where this leads in the case of CAIR.

I know a few of you are Savage fans so I'd at least appreciate knowing where this case stands and what is happening. This case may end up having much farther ramifications than any of us realize right now even if the case goes either way!

JMO

 

[wkmac]

Most religions look pretty strange to people on the outside.
Christians apparently worship a zombie (rose from the dead and stumbled out of his tomb after 3 days or so...), and then there's that whole cannibalism thing where they eat his flesh and drink his blood on a regular basis.

Islam is clearly a violent religion if you take the Koran literally, but the real problem is that religion is such a powerful, dominant social institution in many middle eastern countries. Go back three or four hundred years, to when the church had similar power in the west, and christianity was pretty capable of giving the muslims a run for their money in the atrocity department (witch burnings, the Inquisition, crusades, etc).

I think the long term answer is education and individual empowerment, both of which played a big part breaking the hold that religion institutions had over populations in the west.

When you're illiterate and living under a dictatorship, religious faith is often the only thing you have to believe in, and it's a situation that pretty clearly breeds extremism.

You are correct about outsiders not in the know and this has been used for both good and evil for about all time would be my guess. IMO Cain killed Abel not so much over jealousy but the root cause was a religious rite to honor God. We can debate if this was the first murder but IMO you'd miss the most important message of how mankind can see the dominance of his own faith over that of another human being and how far to the extreme we will go. It really foretold of our most basic trouble that would run thru the threads of time and history.

Religion and history are most intertwined throughout time and one generally doesn't happen without the other. No matter if there's war or peace, prosperity or poverty, life or death which is history itself, running right with all these elements are religion as it's travel companion.

JMO

 

[ezmoney5150]

You are forgetting, or more likely purposely omitting, the fact that mainstream Christianity has chosen to exclude such archaic beliefs from their values. Islam, INCLUDING so called "moderate Muslims", still cling to such archaic practices. Hence the harsh treatment of their women and strict punishment for a broad range of religious and non religious crimes. There aren't many videos on the net of Christians stoning gays to death but there are plenty of videos of Muslims committing such atrocities. Do I even need to mention beheading videos? Does these things represent all Muslims? Of course not. You are trying to paint the picture that Christianity is still clinging to beliefs that today are considered harsh and archaic. Well, compare Christianity as a whole to Islam and you'll find that Christianity has moved ages ahead of Islam on that scale. Is Christianity perfect? Probably not but it seems to have jumped ages ahead of Islam when it comes to human rights. Savage realized this years ago. When will you? To call him a jerk for publicly stating these facts is crazy. I don't see how any true American, whether they like him or not, could be against Savage in this case.

Savage is part of the reason that the Fairness Doctrine should be brought back. It was put into the media because of the effect that propaganda has on a community or country when one view is put out.

This is what happened in 1933 Germany by a guy named Joseph Goebbles. Because of the Versailles treaty Germany was in a deep depression and had super high unemployment. Goebbles said that all their troubles were because of the Jews. Need I say more???

Now Savage has a right to his views but there are some stupid people out there who believe that if it comes out of the radio it must be true. Now that's dangerous. I do agree with Savage on some points, but some of the things he says are very hateful and it's just to get ratings.

By the way big_arrow_up, I'm not a fan of Hillary by any means. As a matter of fact she comes in dead last in my vote of all the Dems. Do you think you are being a little bit harsh calling her a Communist???? Communists don't believe in corporate America. She takes alot of money from them. Not very communist of her do you think???

 

[brett636]

Savage is part of the reason that the Fairness Doctrine should be brought back. It was put into the media because of the effect that propaganda has on a community or country when one view is put out.

This is what happened in 1933 Germany by a guy named Joseph Goebbles. Because of the Versailles treaty Germany was in a deep depression and had super high unemployment. Goebbles said that all their troubles were because of the Jews. Need I say more???

Now Savage has a right to his views but there are some stupid people out there who believe that if it comes out of the radio it must be true. Now that's dangerous. I do agree with Savage on some points, but some of the things he says are very hateful and it's just to get ratings.

By the way big_arrow_up, I'm not a fan of Hillary by any means. As a matter of fact she comes in dead last in my vote of all the Dems. Do you think you are being a little bit harsh calling her a Communist???? Communists don't believe in corporate America. She takes alot of money from them. Not very communist of her do you think???

I don't understand this support for the fairness doctrine. Conservative talk radio exists because people actually listen to it. Air America is a liberal talk radio network that has already had to file bankruptcy because it couldn't get enough listeners to pay the bills. People don't want to listen to left wing moon bats on the radio. The free market has already spoken in that respect.