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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 973730" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>First off, I think we'd both agree that to do Lewis justice, we'd need dozens of posts that each max'd out the character limit and still we'd not cover everything. As to Mere Christianity, I did skim it back in the 1980's so it's been quite some time but 2 points I do kinda remember. The first was that Lewis described christianity like a big hall or room and that the denominations were like hallways or corridors leading off the large hall. Obviously outside the hall is the world of disbelief which if I remember would include anyone not a christian. His goal was to get everyone in the great hall which is the Mere Christianity he spoke of. Problem is as I see it, there is no Mere Christianity to begin with. Get 100 christians in a room and start asking questions and it won't take long before the differences or contradictions arise and each one can be supported by various bible verses more often than not from different books and even testaments. Such differences could be holy spirit before or after salvation? Infant baptism or older age of decision baptims? Immersion or sprinkling? Rapture or we go through it all? Pre-millennial, post-millennial, amillennial? 666 is George Bush, Barrack Obama or was it Nero Ceasar? Was Mary outside original sin thanks to Immaculate Conception or was she just another woman picked from the crowd for a special purpose and once done she returned to pursue her average life? Of course we could go on but the point is, there is no Mere Christianity and I don't think there ever has been. Even the gospels themselves have their differences and contradictions just as on the one hand Paul tells us we have the law and then he tells us we don't. IMO Lewis should have left off the great hall and just stuck to the hallways or corridors and then he'd be close to having that part right.</p><p></p><p>The other part and this is not as clear (the years and memory) was his argument that because we have morality, there must be a god. In other words, he proposes, "there is no morality without god, we have morality so there is a god." In the case of Lewis, it takes the argument one step further making the claim that natural law of morality is proof that god did it. At one time, that explanation might have made sense but evolutionary anthropology and even biology suggests a morality arising out of need for mutual cooperation. We learned not to steal from one another because to do so risked the expending of energy and resources thus making for extra work. In hunter-gatherer societies, this became quite important for obvious reasons. Same could be said of murder because if we have to guard ourselves and our stuff all the time, going out and gathering becomes problematic to say the least. Lying came into play as trust became necessary in order to insure survival. Tribes and later communities understood how important trust was and therefore it emerged as a moral truth. But morals are still a part of our evolutionary process and slavery would be a good example of such. Most christians today balk when it's said that the bible provides for and even regulates slave ownership and regardless of objection, the bible clearly allows for slavery and was widely used 150 years ago in this country to justify it but ironically at the same time other christians were using other parts to argue against the practice. Over the last 150 years we once again morally evolved to now slave ownership regardless of the bible is considered morally wrong. The curse of Ham 150 years ago was a yoke hung on the neck of black society and culture and yet now so few consider that teaching as applicable if not downright BS. Again an evolution in moral understanding. What about the role and position of women? The bible considers women little more than property to the point that if a man rapes a non-betrothed virgin, the man pays the father 50 sheckels and takes the girl for wife, never to divorce her. Now such barbaric ideas were rejected long ago but again this proves an evolution in moral beliefs. </p><p></p><p>For morality to be a natural law written by god on the hearts of all men, seems to me that law would be fixed and never changing because god is perfect, therefore his law is perfect. Change would suggest imperfection seeking perfection, therefore this can't be an action of god. I'll also add in concluding this point that Lewis' stance of we have morality so there is a god argument IMO is a kind of "god of the gaps" argument.</p><p></p><p>Another point I'd like to address is that "Lewis was atheist but is now christian" argument. First off, I consider this as nothing more than an appeal to authority in that Lewis because he was an atheist but now a christian is in itself to have standing of credibility. If that's the case why stop there. What about my neighbor who for her entire life was atheist and yet when her son was born, it didn't look good at all and yet her son lived and is now a 23 year old graduate college student. Doctors told her that her son was a miracle and the event was so powerful, she concluded there was a god and after retiring she just finished her Ph'd in divinity and religious studies and yes she loves to discuss religion and religious history with me while she and my wife kill a pitcher of Mimosa cocktails. She's not a literalist and observes just as much value in Allah, Yahweh, Jesus or any other god because she sees all religious belief as the same god just expressed in different ways based on culture. </p><p></p><p>But if Lewis and my neighbor are evidence of proof then how do you square that proof in the growing numbers of clergy who are joining the <a href="http://clergyproject.org/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000">Clergy Project</span></a> or the likes of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000">Dan Barker</span></a> who is a noted christian musician and preacher now an atheist and founder of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. What about Seth Andrews who for years was a christian broadcaster having come from a family of christian preachers whose now an atheist and created one of the best atheist websites on the web in <a href="http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000">"The Thinking Atheist."</span></a> What about Professor Bart Ehrman, professor of Religious Studies University North Carolina Chapel Hill who studied at Moody Bible Institute, was a preacher who got his Ph'd at Princeton, written numerous book on the New Testament and yet is an admitted agnostic? Or John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop who has called for a fundamental change in christianity completely away from theism? And what about Michael Aus who just 3 weeks ago came out publicly on network TV about his departing belief.</p><p></p><p>[media=youtube]dHAuarW2ruE[/media]</p><p></p><p>If we want to go down that road, fine but does it really mean a whole lot at the end of the day? I do agree with Mike Aus that most people do not read the bible and I highly recommend all christians read the bible cover to cover. I did that starting in the mid-80's and like Mike I began to jettison doctrines and by the early 90's I was done with belief but it was another 10 years before I finally came to grips with where I was at. Mike is also right in that christianity has great appeal for it's community spirit and I honestly believe this is one aspect or legacy of christianity that be maintained and even encouraged. And the lady in the video who makes the point about Robert G. Ingersoll, she is absolutely right. His <a href="http://archive.org/stream/somemistakesofmo00ininge#page/n5/mode/2up" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000">"Some Mistakes of Moses"</span></a> is a great read.</p><p></p><p>I'll conclude this here and I have no expectation that I'll convince you from what you believe and in fact if you've yet to read your bible cover to cover I don't want to nor I doubt I could. As I've already said, ever christian should read their bible cover to cover making detailed notes. Doing so may not make you an atheist but it will cause you to read and ponder the many contradictions and problems found within it's pages.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 973730, member: 2189"] First off, I think we'd both agree that to do Lewis justice, we'd need dozens of posts that each max'd out the character limit and still we'd not cover everything. As to Mere Christianity, I did skim it back in the 1980's so it's been quite some time but 2 points I do kinda remember. The first was that Lewis described christianity like a big hall or room and that the denominations were like hallways or corridors leading off the large hall. Obviously outside the hall is the world of disbelief which if I remember would include anyone not a christian. His goal was to get everyone in the great hall which is the Mere Christianity he spoke of. Problem is as I see it, there is no Mere Christianity to begin with. Get 100 christians in a room and start asking questions and it won't take long before the differences or contradictions arise and each one can be supported by various bible verses more often than not from different books and even testaments. Such differences could be holy spirit before or after salvation? Infant baptism or older age of decision baptims? Immersion or sprinkling? Rapture or we go through it all? Pre-millennial, post-millennial, amillennial? 666 is George Bush, Barrack Obama or was it Nero Ceasar? Was Mary outside original sin thanks to Immaculate Conception or was she just another woman picked from the crowd for a special purpose and once done she returned to pursue her average life? Of course we could go on but the point is, there is no Mere Christianity and I don't think there ever has been. Even the gospels themselves have their differences and contradictions just as on the one hand Paul tells us we have the law and then he tells us we don't. IMO Lewis should have left off the great hall and just stuck to the hallways or corridors and then he'd be close to having that part right. The other part and this is not as clear (the years and memory) was his argument that because we have morality, there must be a god. In other words, he proposes, "there is no morality without god, we have morality so there is a god." In the case of Lewis, it takes the argument one step further making the claim that natural law of morality is proof that god did it. At one time, that explanation might have made sense but evolutionary anthropology and even biology suggests a morality arising out of need for mutual cooperation. We learned not to steal from one another because to do so risked the expending of energy and resources thus making for extra work. In hunter-gatherer societies, this became quite important for obvious reasons. Same could be said of murder because if we have to guard ourselves and our stuff all the time, going out and gathering becomes problematic to say the least. Lying came into play as trust became necessary in order to insure survival. Tribes and later communities understood how important trust was and therefore it emerged as a moral truth. But morals are still a part of our evolutionary process and slavery would be a good example of such. Most christians today balk when it's said that the bible provides for and even regulates slave ownership and regardless of objection, the bible clearly allows for slavery and was widely used 150 years ago in this country to justify it but ironically at the same time other christians were using other parts to argue against the practice. Over the last 150 years we once again morally evolved to now slave ownership regardless of the bible is considered morally wrong. The curse of Ham 150 years ago was a yoke hung on the neck of black society and culture and yet now so few consider that teaching as applicable if not downright BS. Again an evolution in moral understanding. What about the role and position of women? The bible considers women little more than property to the point that if a man rapes a non-betrothed virgin, the man pays the father 50 sheckels and takes the girl for wife, never to divorce her. Now such barbaric ideas were rejected long ago but again this proves an evolution in moral beliefs. For morality to be a natural law written by god on the hearts of all men, seems to me that law would be fixed and never changing because god is perfect, therefore his law is perfect. Change would suggest imperfection seeking perfection, therefore this can't be an action of god. I'll also add in concluding this point that Lewis' stance of we have morality so there is a god argument IMO is a kind of "god of the gaps" argument. Another point I'd like to address is that "Lewis was atheist but is now christian" argument. First off, I consider this as nothing more than an appeal to authority in that Lewis because he was an atheist but now a christian is in itself to have standing of credibility. If that's the case why stop there. What about my neighbor who for her entire life was atheist and yet when her son was born, it didn't look good at all and yet her son lived and is now a 23 year old graduate college student. Doctors told her that her son was a miracle and the event was so powerful, she concluded there was a god and after retiring she just finished her Ph'd in divinity and religious studies and yes she loves to discuss religion and religious history with me while she and my wife kill a pitcher of Mimosa cocktails. She's not a literalist and observes just as much value in Allah, Yahweh, Jesus or any other god because she sees all religious belief as the same god just expressed in different ways based on culture. But if Lewis and my neighbor are evidence of proof then how do you square that proof in the growing numbers of clergy who are joining the [URL='http://clergyproject.org/'][COLOR=#ff0000]Clergy Project[/COLOR][/URL] or the likes of [URL='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Barker'][COLOR=#ff0000]Dan Barker[/COLOR][/URL] who is a noted christian musician and preacher now an atheist and founder of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. What about Seth Andrews who for years was a christian broadcaster having come from a family of christian preachers whose now an atheist and created one of the best atheist websites on the web in [URL='http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/'][COLOR=#ff0000]"The Thinking Atheist."[/COLOR][/URL] What about Professor Bart Ehrman, professor of Religious Studies University North Carolina Chapel Hill who studied at Moody Bible Institute, was a preacher who got his Ph'd at Princeton, written numerous book on the New Testament and yet is an admitted agnostic? Or John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop who has called for a fundamental change in christianity completely away from theism? And what about Michael Aus who just 3 weeks ago came out publicly on network TV about his departing belief. [media=youtube]dHAuarW2ruE[/media] If we want to go down that road, fine but does it really mean a whole lot at the end of the day? I do agree with Mike Aus that most people do not read the bible and I highly recommend all christians read the bible cover to cover. I did that starting in the mid-80's and like Mike I began to jettison doctrines and by the early 90's I was done with belief but it was another 10 years before I finally came to grips with where I was at. Mike is also right in that christianity has great appeal for it's community spirit and I honestly believe this is one aspect or legacy of christianity that be maintained and even encouraged. And the lady in the video who makes the point about Robert G. Ingersoll, she is absolutely right. His [URL='http://archive.org/stream/somemistakesofmo00ininge#page/n5/mode/2up'][COLOR=#ff0000]"Some Mistakes of Moses"[/COLOR][/URL] is a great read. I'll conclude this here and I have no expectation that I'll convince you from what you believe and in fact if you've yet to read your bible cover to cover I don't want to nor I doubt I could. As I've already said, ever christian should read their bible cover to cover making detailed notes. Doing so may not make you an atheist but it will cause you to read and ponder the many contradictions and problems found within it's pages. [/QUOTE]
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