Hoffa op/ed

804brown

Well-Known Member
804,
we can go round and round on this
Look at the company you work for --they pay BILLIONS to the government in Taxes, are regulated , taxed and fined by many governments agencies and are subject to a different labor law than their competitor.
If you think the public sector system is fine --enough said.
I am being too repetitive on this subject.
YOU pay the bill for the public employees--no call --no foul !!:wink2:

Fox, For years, even decades, public unions did right by their members. People were able to raise a family and live a good, middle class life. Nothing wrong with that. Now, governement at every level is running short of money to run the government. Do they decide to cut the biggest waste of $$ out there - the "defense" budget- ?? No. Do they end the tax breaks for profittable corporations ?? NO. Do they undo those huge tax breaks for the wealthy?? No.

The republicans take over Congress and who do they aim for: the Unions. What a surprise. They would like to see those unions weakened. Their aim is to make everyone else feel like: "Hey, Im out of a job, why is THAT guy making so much or getting that much in his pension." They want a race to the bottom for wages and now pensions and benefits. We as union members, hard working members of the working class, have to fight to preserve what we have earned over the years. Those who agreed to those pensions MADE A CONTRACT and they must keep it. We must not allow them to renege on those promises.

Yes , we pay the bills for them. Governement services have a price. That price is taxes. But before you cut services or cut pensions, lets cut wasteful military spending and stop giving corporations and rich individuals tax breaks!
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
8O4
You can only see things through your union glasses which is blurring some reality.
I can give you Thousands of Examples but I am tired of this discussion.
Suffice to say OLD DEMOCRAT JERRY BROWN of CALIFORNIA --laying off cops ---165,000 a year in Oakland does not cut it .
Please management people and union people --stop digging your feet in --open your eyes and use a little commom sense.
Someone will now respond to how dangerous the cops job is --I agree and repect them --but there are limits.
I s it less dangerous for our young people at war --how about 165,000 for every soldier. Sure I would say they deserve it --but it is not reality
I think the majority of public union workers are great hardworking people but because of a corrupt system some changes have to be made .

My final comment on this thread. Again I repeat in your town and state YOU are the boss. Learn about your politicians and who you vote for. be willing to PAY the bill . You are the Mnagement of the public workers. Good wages and benefits are what they deserve----you do not deserve the outrageous deals.
 

hypocrisy

Banned
Their are private sector Unions like the Teamsters and UPS and there are public sector unions for government workers.
Why are UPS and Teamster Negotiations so contentious ?? Because the Teamsters fight for you to enjoy the fruit of your labors trying to get the best benefit and wage pkg possible along with operating concessions. UPS fight as hard as possible to maintain a healthy company with LONG TERM VIABILITY.
The government or public sector unions negotiate with politicians that they have contributed tons of union money to get them elected. The Governors or Mayors know they are not going to be in office forever and agree to outrageous wage and long term benefit packages that will either bankrupt the state or city or YOUR taxes will have to be raised to levels you have never seen to pay for Government workers huge salaries and early and large retirement !! Is this within your comprehension. If you just take a step back you will see that much of this is just common sense.
Most of our politicians are greedy, power hungry fools that do not know how to run a successful business and could care less of the consequences as long as they stay in power.
I am not coming down on you or trying to be a wise guy --can you see my point ??:peaceful:
So, by your own statements the real problem is greedy, power hungry politicians not interested in true public service (and those they appoint to run various departments at exorbitant salaries). I would suggest turning your anger toward the fools that vote those clowns in and the fools who don't vote at all.


People can complain about Private company CEO salaries all they want --you missed the point --Private sector salaries both CEO'S management and Union are paid for by the COMPANIES. If Ups is paying its people too much the market will decide and use competition --fx or others.
Public sector we the citizens --including you are held hostage --no competion -no free market !!
Public sector salaries are paid by all of us --the taxpayers. It is very simple.

Taxpayers aren't held hostage at all: they can vote out any administration that negotiates excessive public sector union wage and benefit packages. Personally, I want my garbage man to make a good salary so it's a 40 year employee getting up every day to pick up my garbage on schedule and not some $8/hr temp hire who might party too much the night before and stick the hydraulic pinchers through the side of my truck instead.
 

hypocrisy

Banned
Oakland entry level police officer salaries range from $71,841 to $90,549 so the $165k (which I cannot find anything to substantiate) doesn't sound all that out of line if the officer has attained a high rank as you stated.

http://www.opdjobs.com/salaries-and-benefits.asp

In my area, entry level officers make half that much so they supplement their pay with "off duty" jobs, which are managed by the department and pay $50/hr. Personally, I would rather my police officers be well rested during their off-duty hours so that they may better respond to emergencies than being paid to babysit a nightclub. Perhaps Oakland limits or prohibits such "off duty" work or the salaries are in line with the higher cost-of-living in California.

California is a particularly bad example to blame Public Sector Unions especially with the recent exposure of city leaders such as those in Bell,CA voting themselves obscene salaries. Perhaps if there is cutting to be done, it should start at the top (same as in the private sector).
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
Crowbar,
First of all I am not angry. I stay a very informed citizen and do not vote for politicians because of party affiliation -but rather on results.
Too many American's do not vote which I agree is a real shame and many that do vote have no idea what is really going on.
Because people become so entrenced with their positions they cannot see the trees when standing in the middle of the forest.
Fair pay and benefits, let me repeat a I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH. The abuses and outright political corruption and pay to get elected at MY expense I do have a problem with.
To take this away from a "union" discussion---check out what Public servant management make compared to a UPS supervisor --again out of control because of idiot politicians.
When we take the word -union--out of the discussion ,many will see our hard earned tax money is being abused.
 

804brown

Well-Known Member
Crowbar,
First of all I am not angry. I stay a very informed citizen and do not vote for politicians because of party affiliation -but rather on results.
Too many American's do not vote which I agree is a real shame and many that do vote have no idea what is really going on.
Because people become so entrenced with their positions they cannot see the trees when standing in the middle of the forest.
Fair pay and benefits, let me repeat a I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH. The abuses and outright political corruption and pay to get elected at MY expense I do have a problem with.
To take this away from a "union" discussion---check out what Public servant management make compared to a UPS supervisor --again out of control because of idiot politicians.
When we take the word -union--out of the discussion ,many will see our hard earned tax money is being abused.

To piggyback on what crowbar was saying, I don't mind seeing our public employees making a decent living as long as they live in the community and spend that $$ locally to keep the economy going. Don't fault the unions for fighting for their members' economic interests. Granted, if there is no $$ for raises, there is no $$. A freeze is better than a lay off. Again, before working class employees get hit, there are other more powerful interests that need to pay their fair share FIRST!
 

hypocrisy

Banned
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/friend-news/2552176/posts

Seems the Oakland Police Union isn't that unreasonable after all IMO.

Perhaps the almost $20k spread for new hire pay was if you live in the City or not? I don't think $20k would persuade me to live in Oakland.

Fox, got any sources for comparing public sector management pay to that of UPS supervisors? (and are we talking friend/t or p/t? Either way the UPSers are pretty screwed and that's really their own fault for putting up with it and because there are too many of them).

Interesting link of USPS pay: http://www.apwu.org/news/burrus/2007/update02-2007-012607-chart.pdf

I think many Public Sector Union's are not nearly as fearsome as made out to be by critics. Surely everyone remembers the air traffic controller's strike? I suppose if those corrupt politicians really thought Union's were the problem, they would force a showdown. Seems like it's mostly misdirection.
 

grgrcr88

No It's not green grocer!
grgrcr88,
It sounds like you believe that somehow I have made this all up. I am not your researcher and have nothing to prove to you. If you are truly interested in this subject I suggest You use the search engine on your computer. If you look at State budgets, public sector jobs ,benefits etc -you will find the info you are looking for.

So you make wild acusations and I am supposed to disprove them?
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
So you make wild acusations and I am supposed to disprove them?
You do not have to be rude--I have not asked you to believe anything.
Of course there are no budget problems, No underfunded pensions everything is peachy, NO UNSUSTAINABLE situations
People see and hear only what they want to . Get so entrenched as a "management" person or a "union" person or a "republican" or a Democrat.
I am not stuck or blinded by those boxes you live in ---I look at REALITY. Yes , again, I do not care what you believe.
Wild accusations ??? Well I will admit you gave me a good laugh .
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
crowbar,
Did you read the botton of the link you posted concerning Oakland.
At age 54 they can retire with a pension of 200,000 ??? Median age today life expectancy 76-78 ??? Taxpayers pay for people to be retired 20-25 years at 200,000 ???? No one can possible believe that is UNREASONABLE:sad-little: It sounds like a very good and reasonable package !!!

Bottom line if you are happy having Property taxes raised again and again,sales tax, license tax, beer tax, cig, tax,state tax etc etc etc NO PROBLEM. YOU pay for it ---I will question how my tax dollars are spent-----I am not telling you what to do ---if everything is fine with you ---fair salary and benefits that you pay for --END of discussion .
 
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hypocrisy

Banned
crowbar,
Did you read the botton of the link you posted concerning Oakland.
At age 54 they can retire with a pension of 200,000 ??? Median age today life expectancy 76-78 ??? Taxpayers pay for people to be retired 20-25 years at 200,000 ???? No one can possible believe that is UNREASONABLE:sad-little: It sounds like a very good and reasonable package !!!

Bottom line if you are happy having Property taxes raised again and again,sales tax, license tax, beer tax, cig, tax,state tax etc etc etc NO PROBLEM. YOU pay for it ---I will question how my tax dollars are spent-----I am not telling you what to do ---if everything is fine with you ---fair salary and benefits that you pay for --END of discussion .

I think this is what you are referring to:
To: SmithL
This is the beginning of dozens of these cut-backs. Every town...every county...and even at the state-level....things are going to start getting tough.

Those who want to negotiate and hope for permanent terms where nobody ever gets fired, can pretty much forget about this strategy. Every single level is in serious financial trouble. The minute they agreed to expanding pension levels back two and three decades ago...they created pension deals today where a guy at age 54 could retire and collect $200k. There are over 12k individuals in California with a pension over $100k.

So if you live in California...God bless you for your guts to stay there, and maybe in ten years after the smoke has cleared...and things are back to a level playing field.

This is an emotion laden comment from "SmithL", so not necessarily based in fact. If we pick it apart we see it refers to "a guy at age 54 could retire" and not specifically Oakland police officers. SmithL goes on to say that there are 12,000 individuals with a pension over $100k in California. I would tend to discount random comments on an article to use as facts unless they are backed up but I did some more research just for fun.

A source that agrees with you, has only 9,111 Government workers (not broken down administrative vs. employees) receiving $100k+ from CalPERS, 5,309 teachers and administrators (I'm sure this leans heavily toward administrators but of course they emphasize teachers) and 1,642 University employees (a fact I found surprising, and again not broken down). I think this database is deliberate in the information it omits, specifically the type of position people retired from. If you put in "Oakland" under CalPERS, you get 224 people receiving $100k or more. 15 under CalSTERS, and we'll have to just assume the UC number is relatively small as there are only small community colleges in Oakland. So only 239 or so Oakland public employees receive pensions of over $100k, not a significant number in the grand scheme of things.

While I was unable to find the total number of UCRP participants, there are over 1.6 million CalPERS members and 847,833 CalSTRs. So even the total number of 16,062 $100k recipients isn't statistically significant.

Oakland police officers offered to contribute 9% of their pay to the pension plan AND a later retirement age for new hires (which would further reduce the burden). This was in exchange for a 3 year moratorium on layoffs. I'd be surprised if Oakland didn't have significant numbers of 54 yr old police officers, and seeing as it's the most violent city in California, if a $200k pension were available they would leave in droves: no layoffs necessary.

Reading further in that article, it seems to me that Oakland was hell bent on laying off police officers regardless of what concessions were given regarding pensions.

I'm not championing California's pension system as perfect, but I don't think it's being fairly examined. If you have a teacher, or rank and file police officer etc, who starts at a young age working toward a goal knowing the rules he signed up for (extra education, required training, living in the city they work,etc) and they achieve that goal of retiring I think they deserve everything that was promised to them. If they want to change the rules for new hires, that should be done during contract negotiations.

Oftentimes it is argued that administrators pay needs to be competitive to attract talent from the private sector. I think it could be argued that upper echelon pay could be cut significantly, and should be, because there is plenty of private sector talent out of work or willing to make the jump into a stable government job at less pay.

I'm no fan of taxes either, and I vote down just about every one that is presented to me. However, I feel it's more important to keep the people responsible for creating the need for taxes by irresponsibly managing the public's money.
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
crowbar,
Believe it or not we agree on many areas.
Let me see what you think of this. In a local township meeting this was presented:
1. Todays children are very interested and motivated by technology--ipods,iphones etc.
2. Made a proposal to freeze the Number of Teachers at present levels but through retirements etc reduce the number by a large %.
3. In the future pay the lower number of teachers a very high salary and benefit package but make full use of computer based training to motivate and teach the children.
4. Rejected because the teacher union wants more teachers ,more union membership, more union dues.
Do not care that the use of technology would produce better results at a lower ongoing cost to taxpayers.
If you are that steeped in unions --you will agree.
Common sense would tell us to move on with the technology of the times.
In my Municipality Teachers want more money,better health care, work only 9 to 3 with two of those hours "planning time" smaller class sizes,better pension plans,get all the holidays off plus sick days, a paid week for spring break, a paid week for winter break,full paycheck June, July August while not working,
presently recieve 50 dollars per pay per hour to be in summer school four hours per day ,one hour which is planning time ????
Also add on a new gym and new football uniforms for the team. What the hell throw in pom-poms for the cheerleaders.
Many of the children graduating cannot even read or write ???
As union President Albert Schanker a long time ago in NYC stated, "When children pay union dues thats when I will worry about their education" Nice !!
 

hypocrisy

Banned
crowbar,
Believe it or not we agree on many areas.
Let me see what you think of this. In a local township meeting this was presented:
1. Todays children are very interested and motivated by technology--ipods,iphones etc.
2. Made a proposal to freeze the Number of Teachers at present levels but through retirements etc reduce the number by a large %.
3. In the future pay the lower number of teachers a very high salary and benefit package but make full use of computer based training to motivate and teach the children.
4. Rejected because the teacher union wants more teachers ,more union membership, more union dues.
Do not care that the use of technology would produce better results at a lower ongoing cost to taxpayers.
If you are that steeped in unions --you will agree.
Common sense would tell us to move on with the technology of the times.
In my Municipality Teachers want more money,better health care, work only 9 to 3 with two of those hours "planning time" smaller class sizes,better pension plans,get all the holidays off plus sick days, a paid week for spring break, a paid week for winter break,full paycheck June, July August while not working,
presently recieve 50 dollars per pay per hour to be in summer school four hours per day ,one hour which is planning time ????
Also add on a new gym and new football uniforms for the team. What the hell throw in pom-poms for the cheerleaders.
Many of the children graduating cannot even read or write ???
As union President Albert Schanker a long time ago in NYC stated, "When children pay union dues thats when I will worry about their education" Nice !!

I think that, while it is a novel concept, using ipads, iphones etc is very problematic in the classroom. What is the cost? Who pays for the devices? What happens when someone loses one? Are they taken home? Are all the teachers properly trained in the devices? What happens when one child has his/her device "crash", does the whole class stop while it's rebooted/fixed? How large will the tech support team need to be? How is cheating monitored? What about personal use? Is all the curricula currently compatible with the device or would new curricula have to be evaluated and purchased? This is just a small sample of the issues that could present themselves and I disagree that it will necessarily produce better results.

Having come from a family of educators, perhaps a better way to answer would be how I would run a school myself. I'll pretend I'm a Superintendent with near-autonomous authority:

I would have minimal staff: Principle, VP and some secretaries, whatever was needed to properly support the Teachers. Administrator pay could not be more than 25% above the highest Teacher pay at all levels.

I would have a "hands off" approach to my Teachers. They would be allowed the freedom to use any teaching method they felt comfortable to achieve the desired results. Personally, I would lean toward teaching by the Socratic method and look for Teachers that excelled in that classical style. Teachers would be supported in dealing with parents, and parents who expected the School to be their babysitter would not be tolerated. Class sizes would be limited to 15-20 and ideally I would like to see the kids have the same teacher throughout their time at this School. I'm leaning toward a system where children had one "homeroom" teacher for general studies, a math teacher, science, music, and computer lab time. Sort of a "high school light" for 1-8th grade. I would encourage Teachers to confer regarding their students progress and establish a system where children were grouped together that were excelling etc so that each class could maintain similar progress.

Teachers would not be expected to pay for classroom supplies out of their own pockets.

Homework would be minimal, rising as children advanced. In High School, team sports would not be emphasized over studies. "Extra-curricular" would be just that. All costs for equipment would be borne by the students with a program to assist poor families.

All teachers would be required to have a Masters degree. Contracts would be one year in length. Annual pay would be spread out bi-weekly over the whole year or a higher check for the 9 school months (School year would run from the day after Labor Day till Memorial Day, with a 2 week break over Christmas/New Years and only required Federal holidays. I see no problem with the Summer School as you stated above.

I would like to see electronic textbooks of the Kindle type variety (cheap, easy to replace) used but again it has the same issues as I stated above. Besides, you cannot highlight or write in the margins of a Kindle.

Foreign language would be taught at all levels of education.

Grades would be of the "A-friend" variety with no pressure to pass failing kids. "At risk" kids would be placed in a more personalized program to address their needs.

I would have a structured school day from 8 a.m. till 5 p.m. (shorter or modified day for K-1) with at least one hour of physical activity each day. This would be structured physical activity, different organized team sports not weighted toward any particular one. Emphasis would be on skill development and teamwork not competition.

There would be minimal annual testing and only of the SAT type. "Teaching to the test" would not be allowed, emphasis would be on college preparatory. Schools would work closely with Community Colleges and State Universities to assure curricula matched this goal.

Lastly, I would bring back the school cafeteria with in-school cooked lunches. Teachers would eat with the students, no "faculty salad bar". (or anyone could brown-bag it).
 

island1fox

Well-Known Member
crowbar,
I am talking about computer based training--I mentioned the rest of the technology because it demonstrates the motivation factor of the youth today.
Qualified educators would program subjects that pupils with computer technology would learn at their individual pace.
A computer will teach consistently. Right now we have very good teachers and protected very bad teachers.
We can beat this to death but until the union grasp is loosened we will be stuck in the past.
As a taxpayer number one I want the best ,most up to date technology used. Computers do not need pay, benefits or pensions. The long term cost of computer updates as a cost to taxpayer would pale in comparison to what we now have.
As I have stated earlier , I believe we have beaten this topic to death. We can agree to disagree , I am going to move on. Thank you for thoughts and a civil discussion!!:peaceful:
 

hypocrisy

Banned
Well I actually have some experience in that area because my Mother was in charge of setting up computer labs and training teachers on how to use them in her District. They are consistent alright: consistently used as a babysitter for the kids same as television is used at home. Computers certainly have their place but not as a replacement for a real Teacher.

While computers do not need pay, benefits, or pension they do need constant updating and maintenance. I disagree vehemently that the long term cost would pale in comparison to what we have now, in fact they would skyrocket. Computer technology changes so fast, sometimes within six months. Trying to stay up-to-date means you are paying premium prices for new products.

Even in College I was learning statistics on a pc/mainframe system that was 2 years out of date, and I was paying a premium for that class! Complete waste of money.

Not to be snarky, but when I was in high school it seemed marijuana was the main motivation factor for most of my classmates. Surely you wouldn't advocate...:happy-very:
 

1timepu

Well-Known Member
Here is a excerpt from Robert Reich's article on public unions:


"But now the right is going after public employees.

Public servants are convenient scapegoats. Republicans would rather deflect attention from corporate executive pay that continues to rise as corporate profits soar, even as corporations refuse to hire more workers. They don't want stories about Wall Street bonuses, now higher than before taxpayers bailed out the Street. And they'd like to avoid a spotlight on the billions raked in by hedge-fund and private-equity managers whose income is treated as capital gains and subject to only a 15 percent tax, due to a loophole in the tax laws designed specifically for them.

It's far more convenient to go after people who are doing the public's work -- sanitation workers, police officers, fire fighters, teachers, social workers, federal employees -- to call them "faceless bureaucrats" and portray them as hooligans who are making off with your money and crippling federal and state budgets. The story fits better with the Republican's Big Lie that our problems are due to a government that's too big.

Above all, Republicans don't want to have to justify continued tax cuts for the rich. As quietly as possible, they want to make them permanent.
But the right's argument is shot-through with bad data, twisted evidence, and unsupported assertions.

They say public employees earn far more than private-sector workers. That's untrue when you take account of level of education. Matched by education, public sector workers actually earn less than their private-sector counterparts.

The Republican trick is to compare apples with oranges -- the average wage of public employees with the average wage of all private-sector employees. But only 23 percent of private-sector employees have college degrees; 48 percent of government workers do. Teachers, social workers, public lawyers who bring companies to justice, government accountants who try to make sure money is spent as it should be -- all need at least four years of college.

Compare apples to apples and and you'd see that over the last fifteen years the pay of public sector workers has dropped relative to private-sector employees with the same level of education. Public sector workers now earn 11 percent less than comparable workers in the private sector, and local workers 12 percent less. (Even if you include health and retirement benefits, government employees still earn less than their private-sector counterparts with similar educations.)

Here's another whopper. Republicans say public-sector pensions are crippling the nation. They say politicians have given in to the demands of public unions who want only to fatten their members' retirement benefits without the public noticing. They charge that public-employee pensions obligations are out of control.

Some reforms do need to be made. Loopholes that allow public sector workers to "spike" their final salaries in order to get higher annuities must be closed. And no retired public employee should be allowed to "double dip," collecting more than one public pension.

But these are the exceptions. Most public employees don't have generous pensions. After a career with annual pay averaging less than $45,000, the typical newly-retired public employee receives a pension of $19,000 a year. Few would call that overly generous.

And most of that $19,000 isn't even on taxpayers' shoulders. While they're working, most public employees contribute a portion of their salaries into their pension plans. Taxpayers are directly responsible for only about 14 percent of public retirement benefits. Remember also that many public workers aren't covered by Social Security, so the government isn't contributing 6.25 of their pay into the Social Security fund as private employers would.

Yes, there's cause for concern about unfunded pension liabilities in future years. They're way too big. But it's much the same in the private sector. The main reason for underfunded pensions in both public and private sectors is investment losses that occurred during the Great Recession. Before then, public pension funds had an average of 86 percent of all the assets they needed to pay future benefits -- better than many private pension plans.

The solution is no less to slash public pensions than it is to slash private ones. It's for all employers to fully fund their pension plans.
The final Republican canard is that bargaining rights for public employees have caused state deficits to explode. In fact there's no relationship between states whose employees have bargaining rights and states with big deficits. Some states that deny their employees bargaining rights -- Nevada, North Carolina, and Arizona, for example, are running giant deficits of over 30 percent of spending. Many that give employees bargaining rights -- Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Montana -- have small deficits of less than 10 percent.

Public employees should have the right to bargain for better wages and working conditions, just like all employees do. They shouldn't have the right to strike if striking would imperil the public, but they should at least have a voice. They often know more about whether public programs are working, or how to make them work better, than political appointees who hold their offices for only a few years.

Don't get me wrong. When times are tough, public employees should have to make the same sacrifices as everyone else. And they are right now. Pay has been frozen for federal workers, and for many state workers across the country as well.

But isn't it curious that when it comes to sacrifice, Republicans don't include the richest people in America? To the contrary, they insist the rich should sacrifice even less, enjoying even larger tax cuts that expand public-sector deficits. That means fewer public services, and even more pressure on the wages and benefits of public employees.

It's only average workers -- both in the public and the private sectors -- who are being called upon to sacrifice.

This is what the current Republican attack on public-sector workers is really all about. Their version of class warfare is to pit private-sector workers against public servants. They'd rather set average working people against one another -- comparing one group's modest incomes and benefits with another group's modest incomes and benefits -- than have Americans see that the top 1 percent is now raking in a bigger share of national income than at any time since 1928, and paying at a lower tax rate. And Republicans would rather you didn't know they want to cut taxes on the rich even more."

Robert Reich is the Biggest Marxist around c'mon on come up with a better resource than that lol
 
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