Is Ground really getting E2 and XS?

[bbsam]

That is because of customer demand and Fedex would prefer to grow everything if possible, who wouldn't? Your sales people will take whatever a shipper is offering to use and they only push Ground when the customer is asking for ground, aka a no-brainer. And if a shipper is asking for Express Saver, they will get pricing for us on E.S. and be very happy doing so. And if one wants Intl, Custom Critical, LTL, Ocean.... They will happily do that as well. The shipper is dictating to the carrier what they want, it is not the other way around, same as it ever was.

You guys can live with this one in denial, I know it is fact, without question and what it does is make me not believe a lot of what is going on here, it is more paranoia, anger and the continuation of making up a group conspiracy theory to explain why your situation is deteriorating. Some of the deterioration is true in our corporate world, but micro-discussing several details, it's your paranoia's and anger twisting things up some. Do this, go get a quote on Express Vs Ground Vs USPS and then ask to yourself.... If I don't have to have a package there ASAP -OR- if I put a few warehouses around the country instead of shipping from one local for everyone and to get packages there still fast... That wow.... $35 vs $10 vs $8 adds up really fast for me in savings, like millions. This is what is happening, I am deciding what I want to use Fedex for, not a Sales person. If there was some type of game going on here why is UPS and Fedex giving me competitive prices in comparable services?

For Example:
Fedex Next Day $40
UPS Next Day $40
Fedex Ground $10
UPS Ground $10

You are alluding that Ground is over-discounting and Express is over-pricing to make Ground the be all end all supreme service. I guess UPS is up to the same game with itself then. It's all an evil plan to get at Express Couriers, even UPS is against you.

I know over a half dozen sales people at Fedex (2 really close), worked with them for many years now, old one's out... new one's in. Even prior to the rise of Ground... they haven't changed their tune to me or others companies I speak with at all during this whole period. Sure they'll mention new services etc., but it is up to me to decide what fits. There is no bull from me here or guess work, I'm talking business straight to Fedex representatives. And guess what? You get a lot of 2 Day from me, because it fits. If I could I'd ship more ground even and save. This isn't rocket surgery.

It is so funny that some here will think a sales person outside my company will tell me how my customers need their packages in terms of expediency. That is not happening. I tell them my business needs, they craft a rate sheet based around that. Same as it ever was.

But what happens when the customer compares Ground rates and Express rates side by side and sees that Ground will commit to the same delivery date at a fraction of the cost? And if the FDX discount beats UPS by a percent or two, well then Ground is sold with a built in emphasis without the sales force having to even mention it.

 

[TUT]

But what happens when the customer compares Ground rates and Express rates side by side and sees that Ground will commit to the same delivery date at a fraction of the cost? And if the FDX discount beats UPS by a percent or two, well then Ground is sold with a built in emphasis without the sales force having to even mention it.

That has nothing to do with Fedex doing secret deals to move customers from Express to Ground. That is the reality of costs and logistics. That is what I've been trying to convey to drivers here that are nervous. This isn't all a scam to get you, the general corporate realities are, but services and prices are not. Service choice is dictated by the shipping industry. We are putting up multiple warehouses to use ground over express because we are smarter today, we are running the numbers... It is cheaper to put up 3 warehouses country wide, stock them via LTL from containers from China, which we've been smarter going ocean freight over air and ship final to consumer via ground.... all when possible. You company is telling you this as well and they now have conceded the air business is not going to bounce back in terms of continued growth. Hence they are doing a re-org. That said, there are many industries that still need Express services, there are companies that don't have the clout to have multiple warehouses, but their clientele needs packages fast, so it is being offered and used, just not as much as cheaper shipping.

It is cheaper to move ground packages vs air packages. Do you agree? Both carriers are priced relatively the same for each, so both have come to the same conclusions.

You mention "And if the Fedex discount beats UPS by a percent or two", yes and that can happen either way. It is competitive and price is still king, both companies are putting out quality enough service. There is no across the board Fedex is Cheaper than UPS or vice versa, these things vary and are negotiated. There is no way for Express to be competitive with ground if time is equal or not important. Express is living on speed and some specialty services ground doesn't have.

 

[bbsam]

I'm not saying it's a scam or conspiracy. All I am saying is that by transit times and pricing FDX is making some Express services obsolete except in a very few circumstances. Either way, as far as the Express driver is concerned, the end is the same.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

"It is cheaper to move ground packages vs air packages."

Especially when you buy a company, set it up to make unionization impossible, and look the other way at worker rights issues and abuses that occur.

The scam is Ground in the first place.

 

[TUT]

I'm not saying it's a scam or conspiracy. All I am saying is that by transit times and pricing FDX is making some Express services obsolete except in a very few circumstances. Either way, as far as the Express driver is concerned, the end is the same.

Without a doubt that happens. Email killed the letter.

I am talking general in terms of "parnoia-drivers", it will fit some here but not all, so if it doesn't fit, assume I'm not directing that to you.

For the Express driver the bottom line will be the same as you say. But it's not all because of someone just wants to be an ass to you, customer choice is doing a large part of that damage. But who here was shedding meaningful tears for the steel industries decline? The paper mills and publishers decline? It is sort of like that, the best news is Express still has a need and for the foreseeable future will, its just not a growth industry anymore. Your company looks to be right-sizing for Express, makes business sense.

Ground is growing because of cost and advanced logistics.
Ground is growing because of cost and advanced logistics.
Ground is growing because of cost and advanced logistics.

Express can't compete with cost vs ground because the cost of transport is simply more.
Express can't compete with cost vs ground because the cost of transport is simply more.
Express can't compete with cost vs ground because the cost of transport is simply more.

There is no secret deal or wink between sales person and shippers to get back at Express.
There is no secret deal or wink between sales person and shippers to get back at Express.
There is no secret deal or wink between sales person and shippers to get back at Express.

 

[TUT]

"It is cheaper to move ground packages vs air packages."

Especially when you buy a company, set it up to make unionization impossible, and look the other way at worker rights issues and abuses that occur.

The scam is Ground in the first place.

But even then it's still more expensive. See UPS's Publised rates. Air cost > Ground Cost and surprisingly both companies are near identical across the board. I would agree that is seems Fedex should be able to offer better rates than UPS because of this, but in general we do not see that.

 

[bbsam]

Fedex can and does offer better rates when they want to. We aren't in the business of "buying" customers. If we can't make a profit, we aren't doing it.

 

[TUT]

Fedex can and does offer better rates when they want to. We aren't in the business of "buying" customers. If we can't make a profit, we aren't doing it.

In general yep. But like any business there is the "hunger terms" those are times and regions etc... where a company needs business and that for a buyer is what we look for an jump on. Fedex from my understanding and exp. does very very little in terms of buying customers, that is actually something you'd see a bit more often from UPS. Both companies are very similar in offers and services, the "buying business" UPS does have that tactic more at hand.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

But even then it's still more expensive. See UPS's Publised rates. Air cost > Ground Cost and surprisingly both companies are near identical across the board. I would agree that is seems Fedex should be able to offer better rates than UPS because of this, but in general we do not see that.

Correct, but at least at UPS Ground and Air are delivered by the same UPS union workforce.

If UPS bought another company and then started ground shipping with cheaper independent contractors, then turned and told the union "hey look, our volume keeps declining over here" well I think you would find the same anger as you are finding among the long term Fedex employees...

 

[vantexan]

That is because of customer demand and Fedex would prefer to grow everything if possible, who wouldn't? Your sales people will take whatever a shipper is offering to use and they only push Ground when the customer is asking for ground, aka a no-brainer. And if a shipper is asking for Express Saver, they will get pricing for us on E.S. and be very happy doing so. And if one wants Intl, Custom Critical, LTL, Ocean.... They will happily do that as well. The shipper is dictating to the carrier what they want, it is not the other way around, same as it ever was.

You guys can live with this one in denial, I know it is fact, without question and what it does is make me not believe a lot of what is going on here, it is more paranoia, anger and the continuation of making up a group conspiracy theory to explain why your situation is deteriorating. Some of the deterioration is true in our corporate world, but micro-discussing several details, it's your paranoia's and anger twisting things up some. Do this, go get a quote on Express Vs Ground Vs USPS and then ask to yourself.... If I don't have to have a package there ASAP -OR- if I put a few warehouses around the country instead of shipping from one local for everyone and to get packages there still fast... That wow.... $35 vs $10 vs $8 adds up really fast for me in savings, like millions. This is what is happening, I am deciding what I want to use Fedex for, not a Sales person. If there was some type of game going on here why is UPS and Fedex giving me competitive prices in comparable services?

For Example:
Fedex Next Day $40
UPS Next Day $40
Fedex Ground $10
UPS Ground $10

You are alluding that Ground is over-discounting and Express is over-pricing to make Ground the be all end all supreme service. I guess UPS is up to the same game with itself then. It's all an evil plan to get at Express Couriers, even UPS is against you.

I know over a half dozen sales people at Fedex (2 really close), worked with them for many years now, old one's out... new one's in. Even prior to the rise of Ground... they haven't changed their tune to me or others companies I speak with at all during this whole period. Sure they'll mention new services etc., but it is up to me to decide what fits. There is no bull from me here or guess work, I'm talking business straight to Fedex representatives. And guess what? You get a lot of 2 Day from me, because it fits. If I could I'd ship more ground even and save. This isn't rocket surgery.

It is so funny that some here will think a sales person outside my company will tell me how my customers need their packages in terms of expediency. That is not happening. I tell them my business needs, they craft a rate sheet based around that. Same as it ever was.

You say fear and paranoia, we say just stating the obvious. FedEx was working on Ground infrastructure long before the economy tanked. This isn't serendipity, having a Ground service in place just as the market turns sour for Express services. Not alluding anything. And if I were a shipper of course I'd go the cheaper route. Just don't tell me, especially when sales people are telling couriers otherwise, that they aren't emphasizing Ground. Why wouldn't they if it's more profitable? I'm not worried about them cannibalizing Express. I'm not upset that they want to make Ground the premiere opco. More power to them. What I get pissed about is all the promises they made about having a good future at Express if we hang in there when all they wanted was as much profit possible to build up an even more profitable division. They had no intention of topping us out, no intention to give us a decent pension. I've worked with more mgrs than most have, and it's obvious that they are told to tell us whatever they think we want to hear in order to keep us hard at it. I've heard mgr B.S. in every corner of the country and it's remarkable how similar it sounds. You want to defend business owners as being honest and decent with special insight that we peons can't grasp. I have no doubt it's fair to describe many business owners as hard working and honest. But when you have a company like FedEx that talks big about taking care of people while everything is geared towards making a relative few wealthier and their policies actually hurt, exploit, and cheat their employees what you have is a corrosive pit that's easy to fall into, hell to get away from unscathed.

 

[bbsam]

Correct, but at least at UPS Ground and Air are delivered by the same UPS union workforce.

If UPS bought another company and then started ground shipping with independent contractors, well I think you would find the same anger as you are finding among the long term Fedex employees...

If UPS could get away with it, they would.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

If UPS could get away with it, they would.

Yes, and the employee anger would be just as contemptuous if not more so than the Express drivers.

 

[bbsam]

Yes, and the employee anger would be just as contemptuous if not more so than the Express drivers.

But it would still be a "level playing field". Just not the one you would prefer.

 

[vantexan]

But even then it's still more expensive. See UPS's Publised rates. Air cost > Ground Cost and surprisingly both companies are near identical across the board. I would agree that is seems Fedex should be able to offer better rates than UPS because of this, but in general we do not see that.

Is UPS offering next day service in a regional zone with a letter rate of $5? Previous station sr.mgr. put up a list of prices for a 2 lb pkg going by UPS, FedEx Express, and FedEx Ground and Ground was much cheaper. I guess if they are charging the same rates as UPS Ground then UPS has nothing to worry about in terms of losing market share and paying the great pay with great benefits. No sir, FedEx, inspite of much lower operating costs for FedEx Ground, is just counting on superior service to lure customers away from UPS.

 

[thedownhillEXPRESS]

But it would still be a "level playing field". Just not the one you would prefer.

\

Leveling the playing field would be national union reform.

 

[Rhoderunner]

FDX is making some Express services obsolete except in a very few circumstances. Either way, as far as the Express driver is concerned, the end is the same.

BINGO.....this is the best explanation of the reality the Express driver is facing. The means to achieve this can be debated to hell freezes over but it is the reality of life for the express hourly employee. We are becoming obsolete due to over lapping services. We are being downsized, becoming a niche player that will offer a few services that frankly not as highly in demand in this economy. The question now is what to do? What becomes of us? How many more work hours can we give up. How many more benefit cuts can we endure. If Memphis had any respect for our years of hard work and dedication to this once proud company they would have included us in the buyouts being offered. That they choose not to speaks volumes in my mind.

 

[TUT]

Correct, but at least at UPS Ground and Air are delivered by the same UPS union workforce.

If UPS bought another company and then started ground shipping with cheaper independent contractors, then turned and told the union "hey look, our volume keeps declining over here" well I think you would find the same anger as you are finding among the long term Fedex employees...

Ok that is a whole nother ball of wax... I was working on "Fedex Sales People are being sneaky and really pushing ground", no rates are doing that.

Now what would Fedex be today if they didn't purchase RPS? I would say you'd be in no better position, perhaps even harsher. The company would have been a shell of what is was, because this is driven by shipper/consumer demand and not Fedex's. So for the Express driver it does sound like a choice of two evils. And I do sympathize about the situation and how you are budding up against a different business structure. But those in charge of Fedex, obtaining RPS was a master stroke and you can't hold that move against them, however perhaps the contractor model, one can... It isn't all black and white, but the buying of RPS was the right move for almost everyone and for the Express driver probably about an even move. You were going down without having a ground solution.

 

[TUT]

Is UPS offering next day service in a regional zone with a letter rate of $5? Previous station sr.mgr. put up a list of prices for a 2 lb pkg going by UPS, FedEx Express, and FedEx Ground and Ground was much cheaper. I guess if they are charging the same rates as UPS Ground then UPS has nothing to worry about in terms of losing market share and paying the great pay with great benefits. No sir, FedEx, inspite of much lower operating costs for FedEx Ground, is just counting on superior service to lure customers away from UPS.

"Is UPS offering next day service in a regional zone with a letter rate of $5?" - Some Amazon's yes, but by far no.

"list of prices for a 2 lb pkg going by UPS, FedEx Express, and FedEx Ground and Ground was much cheaper" - UPS Ground and Fedex ground will be identical everytime and Express will be a lot more.

"I guess if they are charging the same rates as UPS Ground then UPS has nothing to worry about" - I do see the logic in that. But it doesn't explain the whole story or tendencies. But your point is if UPS Ground and Fedex Ground were very near equal, why would a shipper pick a 2nd rate operating company vs UPS? Well they do, even when it is close to even. Now not all and not even most are choosing Fedex Ground, as one can see UPS Ground is something like 10x the size of Fedex Ground. But there are customers that were burned in their view by UPS on something, think claims. There are many others that look at the delivery success metrics and see Fedex Ground is comparable even with contractors vs Union. Some of it has to do with Union, that works both ways, Fedex Ground won't get some business because they aren't Union. UPS is more flexible with pickup times simply because they have more boots on the ground to do so. Many companies today do this "UPS GROUND" - "FEDEX AIR", using the perceived leaders in both segments. I get that to.

But the best overall bottom line I can give you is Fedex Ground Service is with all it has against it... still comparable in getting a package from A to B vs UPS.

But UPS or Fedex at any time could be cheaper than the other, there is no "it's a given Fedex Ground is cheaper than UPS" if it were Fedex Ground would be growing even faster, perhaps that is why they are expanding as fast as they can, so they can do that someday. Because one is right with their models, Fedex Ground should be able to under cut UPS, capacity must be the issue and if Fedex Ground is near full now, why cut your price, right? Now one can say USPS is cheaper than either Fedex or UPS, that is true.

I still feel the regional carrier is the segment that can upset the two majors and they have the contractor model and lower overhead in management, by far. The more warehouses large companies place, the more regional carriers play a part and that is happening.

 

[TUT]

Yes, and the employee anger would be just as contemptuous if not more so than the Express drivers.

As they purchase more opco's themselves, their management seems to be trying to angle it the best they can. LTL being one way. Sure Post.... another. I am eager to see what their next contract looks like. To me caving in will be a huge blow to not only their workforce but as well to the middle class of Americans. This is one of my initials reasons why I came to BrownCafe to begin with, to get a union update and then found interesting discussion over at Fedex, lol.

 

[bbsam]

Well we don't want to undercut UPS prices before our infrastructure can handle it. Even then, of we don't have to discount much, why would we?