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Is UPS really this bad to work for, or are people exaggerating??
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<blockquote data-quote="Iconoclast" data-source="post: 172591" data-attributes="member: 8906"><p><strong>Re: this is a 2 part post</strong></p><p></p><p><em>Ironclast,</em></p><p> </p><p><em>Your positive view of UPS and UPS management is an inspiration to all who view this post. Unfortunately, coming from the outside and not having the total UPS experience is a deterrent for you.</em></p><p> </p><p><em>I too spent a lot of years at UPS - 27 with 26 in full time management and do take exception to your assessment of how screwed up this cesspool of employees really are. We are just mindless puppets and clones of one another, is the perception I get from your post.</em></p><p> </p><p><em>Like any other organization there are strong management and weak management. To state their is no accountability and no discipline with management is absurd. And there are consequences for UPS management that do not do their jobs effectively</em></p><p> </p><p>Channahon,</p><p> </p><p>Good points all. You have brought up several important issues. Let’s chop this up. Ironically, in the archive section dating back to 2003, I found some of my postings from a discussion that are very germane to this thread. </p><p> </p><p>I originally wrote this in October of 2003. The archived thread can be found at the bottom of a current thread, Canon vs. Tieguy. If you scroll to the last page/posting in that thread (Canon vs. Tieguy) you will see a section of the page titled, Similar Threads. The following correspondence is from a thread in that section titled, Calling Tieguy. It is a nice discussion about the ERI, but several of my postings elaborate on my earlier points about accountability in the management ranks.</p><p> </p><p>Again, this is from October of 2003.</p><p> </p><p>We are facing enormous external competitive pressures at Ups right now. Perception is everything in life and FedEx's return to investors, coupled with their success in the ground product has left many Ups districts in chaos. I posted just last week on the Yahoo board some of the reasons that I thought FedEx is a sleeping giant right now. They do a much better job at public perception, whether it is their advertising campaigns or their customer service and they have always defined and measured their success against Ups and made the necessary adjustments to compete with us. </p><p> </p><p>As the marketplace tightens up we have never had to face the pressures of competition that we face now. Pressure on making the sort time, getting out of our centers on time and dealing with the whole issue of jamming ten pounds of potatoes into a five pound bag (our business-everyday) is pressure enough. For most of the almost 100 hundred years in our existence those pressures are what WE placed on ourselves. We set the bar pretty high, but were not always the most responsive organization when the customer had an issue. The primary reason for this - we never measured ourselves against any other organization. We only measured our policies, successes, and methods against history, our own history-and the results were outstanding. </p><p> </p><p>The marketplace has changed rapidly in the last thirty years, but many of our policies and procedures have remained rigid and totalitarian. </p><p> </p><p>Especially in the areas of management. There are a lot of good things that happen when you promote from within-but there is a massive downside also. The management style that was so effective as we moved through the 50's 60's and 70's saw unprecedented success. Return on investment and unbelievable growth were the earmarks of these decades. It also entrenched a management style that manifested itself over years as inbred, stale, and ill equipped to handle the pressure of a competitive marketplace where things change with dynamic simultaneity. </p><p> </p><p>The primary requirements to become a Ups manager have always been a clean employment record, a desire to move up, and a lengthy tenure with the organization. Everything else could be taught on the job - trial by fire. Historically, there was not a lot of training, and an individuals core skill set and aptitude were often overlooked when they were placed in a specific work area. </p><p> </p><p>Traditionally, if you do not steal, fudge numbers or violate the fraternization policy, your chances of remaining employed at Ups for a lengthy tenure are very good. Even if you prove to be an ineffective and downright poor manager. Your work assignments, feedback from employees and performance reviews will all reflect your ineptitude, but you will probably be allowed to continue to work at Ups. </p><p> </p><p>As you continue to erode the morale and performance of those who are unfortunate enough to find themselves in your charge, you will undoubtedly be exposed to the wrath of your superior and peer managers in your work area. Instead of doing the right thing and firing you, Ups will put you through the wringer. You will be bitched at, threatened, relocated - and the most motivating of all moves- possibly demoted. When push comes to shove your peers and senior managers will give you a passable performance review, keeping you around because of your tenure and stockholder status-thus weakening the partnership immeasurably by refusing to step up and saying enough is enough. </p><p>Again, you are a contentious management employee, but you are not respected by your employees, cannot effectively run an area, and you are consistently met with poor ERI results and performance reviews. You are however, a large shareholder, because you are tenured.</p><p> </p><p>This system of management has crippled Ups and we are faced with literally thousands of incapable managers with 15- 20 years on the job that are in their early to mid forties. So entrenched are they in their ways and so close-minded are they in their approach to managing our biggest resource - our people, that it makes it extremely difficult to implement change, and our frustration level is through the roof. I think its important to stress here that I am talking about bad management persons. People who have a history of performance that is commensurate with poor decisions and bad leadership. Not people who have made a few bad decisions and are still worthy of our support. We ALL know the difference. We ALL know who these people are, and we ALL know how horrible it is to work for them. </p><p> </p><p>The ERI provides one of the only opportunities to collectively comment on our management team. But the standards that management is held to for those horrible marks that we see on the ERI are unrealistic in their attempts to correct that behavior. </p><p> </p><p>If you were to look at the reasons that Ups fires it's management you will not often see strict performance goals as a condition of employment. In sales, many of my colleagues work hard and consistently fall short of there quotas and don’t make their numbers. They tried the best that they can, but fell short. In almost any other professional sales force of Ups’ caliber, you would be dismissed, and you should be-you are incapable of doing the job-The old adage -Hire slow - fire fast. </p><p> </p><p>However, in most cases at UPS, if that manager is a large stockholder and been around for twenty years, there is often re-assignment, demotion and responsibilities that have no real consequence for failure. This is demeaning to that employee, it does nothing to motivate him/her to change, and most importantly, sends a strong message that mediocrity and substandard performance are acceptable forms of management. </p><p> </p><p>To be continued</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Iconoclast, post: 172591, member: 8906"] [b]Re: this is a 2 part post[/b] [I]Ironclast,[/I] [I]Your positive view of UPS and UPS management is an inspiration to all who view this post. Unfortunately, coming from the outside and not having the total UPS experience is a deterrent for you.[/I] [I]I too spent a lot of years at UPS - 27 with 26 in full time management and do take exception to your assessment of how screwed up this cesspool of employees really are. We are just mindless puppets and clones of one another, is the perception I get from your post.[/I] [I]Like any other organization there are strong management and weak management. To state their is no accountability and no discipline with management is absurd. And there are consequences for UPS management that do not do their jobs effectively[/I] Channahon, Good points all. You have brought up several important issues. Let’s chop this up. Ironically, in the archive section dating back to 2003, I found some of my postings from a discussion that are very germane to this thread. I originally wrote this in October of 2003. The archived thread can be found at the bottom of a current thread, Canon vs. Tieguy. If you scroll to the last page/posting in that thread (Canon vs. Tieguy) you will see a section of the page titled, Similar Threads. The following correspondence is from a thread in that section titled, Calling Tieguy. It is a nice discussion about the ERI, but several of my postings elaborate on my earlier points about accountability in the management ranks. Again, this is from October of 2003. We are facing enormous external competitive pressures at Ups right now. Perception is everything in life and FedEx's return to investors, coupled with their success in the ground product has left many Ups districts in chaos. I posted just last week on the Yahoo board some of the reasons that I thought FedEx is a sleeping giant right now. They do a much better job at public perception, whether it is their advertising campaigns or their customer service and they have always defined and measured their success against Ups and made the necessary adjustments to compete with us. As the marketplace tightens up we have never had to face the pressures of competition that we face now. Pressure on making the sort time, getting out of our centers on time and dealing with the whole issue of jamming ten pounds of potatoes into a five pound bag (our business-everyday) is pressure enough. For most of the almost 100 hundred years in our existence those pressures are what WE placed on ourselves. We set the bar pretty high, but were not always the most responsive organization when the customer had an issue. The primary reason for this - we never measured ourselves against any other organization. We only measured our policies, successes, and methods against history, our own history-and the results were outstanding. The marketplace has changed rapidly in the last thirty years, but many of our policies and procedures have remained rigid and totalitarian. Especially in the areas of management. There are a lot of good things that happen when you promote from within-but there is a massive downside also. The management style that was so effective as we moved through the 50's 60's and 70's saw unprecedented success. Return on investment and unbelievable growth were the earmarks of these decades. It also entrenched a management style that manifested itself over years as inbred, stale, and ill equipped to handle the pressure of a competitive marketplace where things change with dynamic simultaneity. The primary requirements to become a Ups manager have always been a clean employment record, a desire to move up, and a lengthy tenure with the organization. Everything else could be taught on the job - trial by fire. Historically, there was not a lot of training, and an individuals core skill set and aptitude were often overlooked when they were placed in a specific work area. Traditionally, if you do not steal, fudge numbers or violate the fraternization policy, your chances of remaining employed at Ups for a lengthy tenure are very good. Even if you prove to be an ineffective and downright poor manager. Your work assignments, feedback from employees and performance reviews will all reflect your ineptitude, but you will probably be allowed to continue to work at Ups. As you continue to erode the morale and performance of those who are unfortunate enough to find themselves in your charge, you will undoubtedly be exposed to the wrath of your superior and peer managers in your work area. Instead of doing the right thing and firing you, Ups will put you through the wringer. You will be bitched at, threatened, relocated - and the most motivating of all moves- possibly demoted. When push comes to shove your peers and senior managers will give you a passable performance review, keeping you around because of your tenure and stockholder status-thus weakening the partnership immeasurably by refusing to step up and saying enough is enough. Again, you are a contentious management employee, but you are not respected by your employees, cannot effectively run an area, and you are consistently met with poor ERI results and performance reviews. You are however, a large shareholder, because you are tenured. This system of management has crippled Ups and we are faced with literally thousands of incapable managers with 15- 20 years on the job that are in their early to mid forties. So entrenched are they in their ways and so close-minded are they in their approach to managing our biggest resource - our people, that it makes it extremely difficult to implement change, and our frustration level is through the roof. I think its important to stress here that I am talking about bad management persons. People who have a history of performance that is commensurate with poor decisions and bad leadership. Not people who have made a few bad decisions and are still worthy of our support. We ALL know the difference. We ALL know who these people are, and we ALL know how horrible it is to work for them. The ERI provides one of the only opportunities to collectively comment on our management team. But the standards that management is held to for those horrible marks that we see on the ERI are unrealistic in their attempts to correct that behavior. If you were to look at the reasons that Ups fires it's management you will not often see strict performance goals as a condition of employment. In sales, many of my colleagues work hard and consistently fall short of there quotas and don’t make their numbers. They tried the best that they can, but fell short. In almost any other professional sales force of Ups’ caliber, you would be dismissed, and you should be-you are incapable of doing the job-The old adage -Hire slow - fire fast. However, in most cases at UPS, if that manager is a large stockholder and been around for twenty years, there is often re-assignment, demotion and responsibilities that have no real consequence for failure. This is demeaning to that employee, it does nothing to motivate him/her to change, and most importantly, sends a strong message that mediocrity and substandard performance are acceptable forms of management. To be continued [/QUOTE]
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