Nice thought, but management/hourly can be a great thing if properly "managed", I think every hourly has a least one Sup/manager they liked or respected. Unfortunately with the changes that have occurred over the last few years, instead of strong seasoned UPS employees (mostly drivers) going into management, it's just some kid with a degree that's good at excel. Drivers are the backbone of the company, always have been, always will be. Atlanta has obviously lost sight of this. There is a place for outside expertise in certain areas, but 4 years in a classromm can't replace years of operations experience. This is why management will continue to lose the respect of the hourly workforce as well as the customer. My dept. has lost 4 people in 3 weeks with many more to follow. I wish them luck. i for one won't work 80 hour weeks for the next insulting MIP.
BoogaBooga
Well-Known Member
What are the 6 elements/initiatives that UPS bases its MIP on?
squeekywheel
Member
Why I consider this MIP award a money grab:
Back in 2004 the MIP factor was 2.4. This was determined by dividing pre-tax profit by the management compensation pool - a simple calculation reflecting the strength of the company.
Fast forward to 2006. Profit for the 2006 MIP cycle is 30% higher than the 2004 MIP cycle (source: UPS earnings reports 2003-2006). A less easily derived number is the increase in management compensation pool. The increase is due to pay raises and total increase in number of managers. Based on pre 2004 numbers I'll throw out the number of around 7.5% per year or 15% for 2 years. (Feel free to substitute your guess). That leaves the following math:
2006 Est. Factor = (Profit Increase/Mgmt Pool Increase) * 2004 Factor
2006 Est. Factor = (130%/115%) * 2.4 = 2.71
Even if you assumed the Management Pool Compensation increased 30% over the 2 year period, the result is 2.4. It would take a 95% increase in the Management Pool Compensation over 2 years to yield a 1.6 factor for these profits. We know neither of the above occurred!
michael
Chicago area
I'm trying to find a way to say this nicely but I can't think of one so, here goes... I'm so glad I left 8 years ago.... It was without a doubt one of the best moves I ever made.
I do miss some of the people I used to work with but NOT the job...Hearing what is going on now just makes me sick ! And, before anyone asks, yes, I was in management. I feel for all the young management people, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
This MIP debacle is just the latest in the long list of reasons that I' glad I'm gone.
I do miss some of the people I used to work with but NOT the job...Hearing what is going on now just makes me sick ! And, before anyone asks, yes, I was in management. I feel for all the young management people, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
This MIP debacle is just the latest in the long list of reasons that I' glad I'm gone.
Can someone please help me understand this. I have been searching for two days to get this factor and it was never posted on UPSers.com as stated previously. No announcement or explaination anywhere to be found. Who is the coward unwilling to bring this explaination forward? I am here for the long term and a simple explaination would suffice. The last two days staff level managers have avoided this question. What is the MIP factor? Are they embarrassed as well? I know that this is not gauranteed but I feel that INTEGRITY should be a given at UPS. What would Jim Casey say? We should have contained our own greed and remained priivately held............
CTOTH
Not retired, just tired
Extra costs don't matter when referring to profit because they've already been accounted for. Refer to my previous post. That simple formula means that the operating costs, you speak of, have already been deducted from the revenue/sales.
Example:
I sold a cookie that cost me $0.20 to make. It sold for $1. My profit is $0.80.
If it cost me $0.50 to make and I sold it for $1.30. My profit is still $0.80.
These losses you speak of have already been factored into the equation and the profit remains higher than last year. The profit is the bottom line.
J
Just My Opinion
Guest
My guess is that most staff level managers are trying to get a better understanding on the reasons from their management. They'll have to answer all your questions and the fact it, they can't. In my meeting when we were told, three people asked the question, "how were the elements are weighted" and all three times, the question was danced around and never directly answered. Reason being, there probably is no official textbook answer that they want employees to know. I don't think they would feel comfortable saying, "It's weighted to appeal directly to what Wall Street wants" but that's most likely the real reason.
Yeah, you can point out the losses that SCS took and the fact that we didn't meet all the "elements" but the fact remains, UPS had record earnings. Last year, UPS distributed over $900 million in MIP, this year it's close to $700 million. That "extra" $200+ million goes right back to the bottom line and shows Wall Street that UPS is committed to its stock holders (not employees anymore).
I agree that going public was a bad idea. Where I work, most of the people that were in upper management at the time UPS went public have since left as multi millionaires thanks to the stock split. Those days are long gone! Now those with all the stock just want to maintain the value and not take risks. UPS goes back into it's slumber and those at the bottom of the management chain working 60+ hours a week, look at hourly employees with envy because they get overtime and probably make more money (thanks to these wonderful changes).
F
Feeder Guy
Guest
The 1.6 is the worst thing our management team has ever done to us. They should be all be fired, those rich pompous asses they are. When was the last time any of them worked a night shift. Wait a minute, lets go look at the pictures of Cal Darden's house, or maybe go over there for a haircut in his personal barber shop. Oh, he doesn't work there any more.
Hub - what's a hub?
The little guy just got screwed. Yeah, I'm real motivated to break my ass through peak.
Hub - what's a hub?
The little guy just got screwed. Yeah, I'm real motivated to break my ass through peak.
W
wet behind the ears
Guest
OK please excuse my ignorance but what does the MIP factor mean exactly? Does that mean you get 1.6 times your monthly salary in stock based on the closing price on the day the number is announced?
Also, what is a "two scoop manager"?
Thank you
Also, what is a "two scoop manager"?
Thank you
A
Amous Cow
Guest
Problem with your point (aside from the fact that profits are far above what we saw in the 90's) is that in the 90's MIP was decided based on a clear calculation using 15% of the companies profit. Last year they changed the way it MIP was calculated using "elements" but the award was good so nobody questioned it. When we see the 1.6 (33% drop from last year), it raises eyebrows. When asked exactly how they arrive at this number.......things get hazy. To say "we didn't meet all the elements" is fine but back that up with how the number was calculated.
There's no comparison between now and the 90's. Comapny has higher profits now but things were better for employees in the 90's.
B
brownISer
Guest
agreed, but with the company doing so well. the 1.6 just doesn't make sense...back in the 90's there were a lot more expenses such as the cost of new planes, etc...driving the MIP so low.
BrownBlackandBlue
Member
I am only suprised that the MIP factor was not reduced last year. I operate under the belief that the board wants to make our compensation more like that of other transportation companies, which requires reductions in benefits, profit sharing (MIP) and slowing of salary growth.
I also operate under the belief that they do not want me to work 12-14 hours per day. (I worked those hours for 12 years). If you have read the Center of the Future directives, one of the stated objectives of the program is to reduce management hours. If you take them at their word, it is your responsibility to help implement that.
A year and a half ago, I realized that this was not the same job that I originally signed up for (compensation wise). It used to have what I considered the big 3. 1. Job security 2. The MIP 3. Early retirement. I think you can agree that the 1st two are not what they used to be and the 3rd will be dealt with soon.
After that realization hit me, I decided that I was no longer going to give them the 12-14 hours per day. I was going to give them the 9-10 that they expected per their COF program. (Why should they compensate me for 12-14 when they are only asking for 9?)
I am a Package Dispatch Supervisor. I work 8-10 hours per day. I do my job well. I am always in the top 50 PAS sites out of 500. I prioritize carefully and am not afraid to roll tasks over to the next day. Most importantly, I do not do things that are not my job. I do not do tasks that belong to the driver sups, the manager, or the OMS'. I say no. In fact, they do not ask me to do them anymore. If I am held over for a meeting, the manager and Division manager are always watching the clock to make sure I can leave in a timely fashion.
My point is this: Everyone assumes they have to work the long hours to get the job done. But I don't think most have tried it the other way. Yes other parts of the operation may suffer if your hand is not in it, but that is not your responsibility any more. Your responsibility is to do your job well and let your manager worry about the rest of it.
Yes, it goes against our old culture, but the old ways are gone and it is time to adjust, otherwise there is only bitterness.
I also operate under the belief that they do not want me to work 12-14 hours per day. (I worked those hours for 12 years). If you have read the Center of the Future directives, one of the stated objectives of the program is to reduce management hours. If you take them at their word, it is your responsibility to help implement that.
A year and a half ago, I realized that this was not the same job that I originally signed up for (compensation wise). It used to have what I considered the big 3. 1. Job security 2. The MIP 3. Early retirement. I think you can agree that the 1st two are not what they used to be and the 3rd will be dealt with soon.
After that realization hit me, I decided that I was no longer going to give them the 12-14 hours per day. I was going to give them the 9-10 that they expected per their COF program. (Why should they compensate me for 12-14 when they are only asking for 9?)
I am a Package Dispatch Supervisor. I work 8-10 hours per day. I do my job well. I am always in the top 50 PAS sites out of 500. I prioritize carefully and am not afraid to roll tasks over to the next day. Most importantly, I do not do things that are not my job. I do not do tasks that belong to the driver sups, the manager, or the OMS'. I say no. In fact, they do not ask me to do them anymore. If I am held over for a meeting, the manager and Division manager are always watching the clock to make sure I can leave in a timely fashion.
My point is this: Everyone assumes they have to work the long hours to get the job done. But I don't think most have tried it the other way. Yes other parts of the operation may suffer if your hand is not in it, but that is not your responsibility any more. Your responsibility is to do your job well and let your manager worry about the rest of it.
Yes, it goes against our old culture, but the old ways are gone and it is time to adjust, otherwise there is only bitterness.
hangin455
Well-Known Member
Face it folks: Less for you means more for Wall Street. The majority of this company is no longer owned by those who manage it. This is just another "cost cutting". Cut expenses, increase the Mgmt's % of health care contributions and boost the bottom line at all costs. I almost wouldn't mind except the stock price doesn't really move any way. I really hope I'm able to cash in someday.
I do not know where the future leaders of this company are going to come from. Supervisor's pay a high price in loss of personal life with the # of hours worked but you used to be able to point at the compensation as making it worthwhile. What incentives are there for someone to enter management now?
I do not know where the future leaders of this company are going to come from. Supervisor's pay a high price in loss of personal life with the # of hours worked but you used to be able to point at the compensation as making it worthwhile. What incentives are there for someone to enter management now?
beentheredonethat
Well-Known Member
BB&B So true. I am under the same opinion now. Although they always said before (up here) that we should work 9 hrs/day. No one did it and they really expected a lot more. But they said we should work 9 day. So I agree with you, if they corporate cut our total salary and increase our health costs, then it would be proper to at least have a work life balance that they are always crowing about.
L
Lost in the Crowd1
Guest
Look at this and let me ask you where you think your MI incentive went. According to others, since I'm too lazy to calculate it myself, was a savings of 250 million to the UPS. UPS made a billion dollars this year. But if you remove from that profit the MI incentive then a equal comparison of profit to last year would be 750 million dollars more or less.
Which if we made 950 million dollars last year is a decrease of 200 million of profit dollars this year. I guess the question is where did that profit go?
This would shouw a negative eps from 86 cents per share (of the 950 million last year) to some lower number this year. This supposes many things being equal. A quarter billion dollars is not bad but is the company in a period of negative growth? Most likely from the competition? Is that why they raided your MI?
If your MI occurs only once year, and if the shortfall in earnings is an indicator the market and competition, what will happen or is happening right now in the 4th quarter operating enviroment?
And if this momentum or lack of give similar earnings in the next earnings release, what will UPS use to pump up earnings and cover up their business enviroment?
I'm trying to understand where UPS grows? If Fed Ex is gaining business and growing their domestic ground market and it shows in their results, then UPS must be experiencing volume loss? Is Fed Ex using their competivet cost advantage of lower costs due to their non-union enviroment to their benefit in attracting more volume from UPS? The Fed Ex ground side has shown good growth but at whose expense?
If UPS does't grow then the only way to shore up the balance sheet, at least for a little longer, is the expense side. Cut costs (capital expenditures) and cut people. Or get rid of unprofitiable business like their logstics side.
But they still have the Fed Ex ground issue? Am I overstating the threat here?
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- United Parcel Service's third-quarter earnings rose on higher average package volume, but the delivery giant also promised Thursday to cut 20% of costs from a money-losing supply chain and freight division.
UPS said third-quarter net income rose about 9% to $1.04 billion, or 96 cents a share, from $953 million, or 86 cents a share in the same period a year earlier. The Atlanta-based company's revenue rose 10.5%, reaching $11.66 billion from $10.55 billion.
Analysts polled by Thomson First Call had forecast, on average, earnings of 90 cents a share and revenue of $11.65 billion.
In addition, UPS stuck to a 2006 forecast of 11% growth in per-share earnings. The stock rose 3.9% to finish at $75.25.
"The small package business should be strong in the fourth quarter as we expect international deliveries and the U.S. holiday shipping period to be solid," said Scott Davis, chief financial officer.
The company's third-quarter daily ground volume increased 3.6%, while average daily volume for its next-day delivery by air service rose 1.0% and deferred air volume climbed 3.4%.
Management also promised to eliminate 20% of non-operating expenses in its supply chain and freight unit, which reported a more than 25% rise in revenue but a loss.
tieguy
Banned
Good question. Another one would be how do we trust a compensation plan with ambiguous measurement when profits increased dramatically.
My guess is we are going to try to keep management compensation costs down while we give the ship away to the teamsters to get an early contract settlement.
Our stock will then take another beating as the public reaction to a new contract is "holy **** how will they pay for all of that"
trickpony1
Well-Known Member
Tie-
Our opinions don't always agree and, occasionally, we take tongue-in-cheek jabs at each other but, with all due respect, your posts usually hold me in awe. (no sarcasm intended).
Your counterpoint to "WetFeetGal" was one of those. Early in the post you hint at deception, "...giving the impression" and "...helping us fool the public stock market", thereby defying the staunch reputation of honesty and integrity so espoused by the company and management.
Additionally, "...how do we trust a compensation plan....." suggests further disdain for your management forefathers.
BUT THEN you shift the blame to the vile, evil Teamsters by pretending that all the cuts in the MIP are to "....give the ship away to the Teamster's...".
I am in awe.
Our opinions don't always agree and, occasionally, we take tongue-in-cheek jabs at each other but, with all due respect, your posts usually hold me in awe. (no sarcasm intended).
Your counterpoint to "WetFeetGal" was one of those. Early in the post you hint at deception, "...giving the impression" and "...helping us fool the public stock market", thereby defying the staunch reputation of honesty and integrity so espoused by the company and management.
Additionally, "...how do we trust a compensation plan....." suggests further disdain for your management forefathers.
BUT THEN you shift the blame to the vile, evil Teamsters by pretending that all the cuts in the MIP are to "....give the ship away to the Teamster's...".
I am in awe.
