New retirement vacation policy

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Frankie's Friend

Guest
There was no Kumbaya we're all great loving family. It was always a tough business. There were plenty of management that thought the only way to get effective work out of hourlies was to be a prick, just as there were drivers that sat around enjoying a grand slam at Denny's on the clock sheeting packages.

There was, prior to 97, a culture in upper management that we were all in the business together, both hourly and management, we all wanted to see the business succeed long term. The union successful sold the hourly that the company only wanted to screw them, so the hourly screwed the company.

The team concept was actually already on the way out prior to the strike, because it had showed no dividends. Oz Nelson was removed as CEO partly because that was his boondoggle, and he had already been replaced by Kelly prior to the strike.

The union should have been able to explain financial realities to their members. I've heard the argument many times that UPS somehow forced the union to match their offer just by making it and therefore forced them to more quickly kill the CS plan. That argument is completely without merit.

UPS was losing market share, primarily due to cost disadvantages. The leadership at the time was taking the long view. Financially the company was strong, but they saw the writing on the wall. They wanted to make changes to control cost growth while they were strong, not try to do it from a failing company. That's why the CSTC's and DI and COD sites were consolidated, among others.
The leaders were correct about the loss of market share. What they did not anticipate was the level to which e commerce would expand the market. UPS continues to lose market share, and continues to grow as the market growth makes up for it.

There were no merrit based raises for hourlies in UPS proposals, not sure where you're getting that. There was a profit sharing bonus proposed that would have been based on the profit performance of the company, not the performance of any individual if that's what you mean.
Thx for your perspective from the management side.
The performance based raises were very much offered and in the 6 part copy the DM passed out on the strike line (there were 7 sheets with one torn out that left a piece of the corner under the staple) the description of "performance" included, misdeliveries, customer complaints, and things like that. Funny, a few years later, the fdx grd drivers on my route said they had their checks docked for those very things.
I read the info passed out (twice) and may still have it stashed away with the old Inside UPS magazines from that time period.

Who were we losing market share to? LTL? RPS? The Post Office?

The company didnt "force" the union to match their $1000 bump but the company had a pretty good understanding of what that offer might and/or would do.

It isn't rocket science to figure that out.
 
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F

Frankie's Friend

Guest
By the way @brownIEman , the vast majority of hourly I've worked with appreciate the job they have. It used to be a sought after vocation and hard to get your foot in the door. Now, not so much. The employment culture is changing.
 

UPSER1987

Well-Known Member
By the way @brownIEman , the vast majority of hourly I've worked with appreciate the job they have. It used to be a sought after vocation and hard to get your foot in the door. Now, not so much. The employment culture is changing.
I agree with this statement...goes back to the old 80/20 concept regardless of job title.
A driver job that used to have a seven year waiting list has been reduced to employees that have only been there a few months. All positions in the future will be considered jobs rather than careers which is sad.
 
F

Frankie's Friend

Guest
I agree with this statement...goes back to the old 80/20 concept regardless of job title.
A driver job that used to have a seven year waiting list has been reduced to employees that have only been there a few months. All positions in the future will be considered jobs rather than careers which is sad.
The up side is that younger workers can get their time in earlier with more full time years if they can start driving at age 21 and retire at an earlier age.

Some can't wait to get in to this job and half way through their employment they can't wait to get out. IMO cultivating a positive work environment should be a priority and it would pay dividends.
 

Coldworld

60 months and counting
My point was that before the strike, I never saw where we treated well. After the strike, it did get worse, but even if we had never gone on strike, we were never going to be a real part of the Company.. Never..
Even though we are the company... especially to the customers....
 

texan

Well-Known Member
I retired this year and got to use my vacation days.

It helped me to escape unexpected (I also had undetected Personal Days) and avoid all the
Corporate (I worked in a Corporate environment) PowerPoint boo hoo hoo we will miss you
and here is a reflection of what you did meeting in the conference room. :thumbup:

Another benefit gone for those behind me
. :wince:
 

Old Man Jingles

Rat out of a cage
I retired this year and got to use my vacation days.

It helped me to escape unexpected (I also had undetected Personal Days) and avoid all the
Corporate (I worked in a Corporate environment) PowerPoint boo hoo hoo we will miss you
and here is a reflection of what you did meeting in the conference room. :thumbup:

Another benefit gone for those behind me
. :wince:
Welcome to the other side!
 

Anonymous 115

Well-Known Member
The article is no longer viewable on Upsers.com. Maybe too many complaints. I wonder how they will handle the people who received their letters a day after they were supposed to make their decision.
 

RetiredIE

Retirement is VASTLY underrated
It was very poorly communicated/administered to those affected

I wonder if this was due to the fact the Corporate HR is pathetic at communicating or that they are the victim of a shoot from the hip, not well-thought out, rushed decisions from the Management Committee...
 

Popeye

Well-Known Member
I wonder if this was due to the fact the Corporate HR is pathetic at communicating or that they are the victim of a shoot from the hip, not well-thought out, rushed decisions from the Management Committee...
If I had to guess, probably both. HR has been known by pretty much everyone in the company for their incredible incompetence for many years. But so has the Management Committee. To me this change has Scott Price/McKinsey written all over it. Definitely consistent with their MO. It also says loud and clear that they plan for a lot of people to retire very soon, whether these future retirees know it or not.
 

The Real Jack RyanMI6

Well-Known Member
If I had to guess, probably both. HR has been known by pretty much everyone in the company for their incredible incompetence for many years. But so has the Management Committee. To me this change has Scott Price/McKinsey written all over it. Definitely consistent with their MO. It also says loud and clear that they plan for a lot of people to retire very soon, whether these future retirees know it or not.
Just a follow up question, do you think this MO will trickle down to the package drivers on the sweet routes in each center who are, as in my centers case 5 plus, years past retirement?
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
Thx for your perspective from the management side.

NP, always enjoy the exchange of ideas.

The performance based raises were very much offered and in the 6 part copy the DM passed out on the strike line (there were 7 sheets with one torn out that left a piece of the corner under the staple) the description of "performance" included, misdeliveries, customer complaints, and things like that. Funny, a few years later, the fdx grd drivers on my route said they had their checks docked for those very things.
I read the info passed out (twice) and may still have it stashed away with the old Inside UPS magazines from that time period.

This sounds really weird to me. The "Last,Best,Final" has been posted by others on the BC, and there was no mention in that of this type of compensation, so what you would seem to be something that was circulated after the LBF during the negotiations going on during the strike. The thing is, those negotiations should have been kept at the table. The idea of a District Manager passing out company proposals on the strike line is very hard for me to buy. For one thing, he would have got his ass beat where I was, and I worked in a building in a RTW state that does not have a very strong militant culture, relatively speaking. Then, once he got his ass beat by the striking teamsters for passing that out, he would have gotten his ass beat by the region manager and corporate management for going around the negotiating committee. A DM doing that during the strike would seriously need to have his head examined. Is there any chance a teamster typed up that stuff and passed it off as an insulting offer from management to keep up morale as the strike dragged on?

Who were we losing market share to? LTL? RPS? The Post Office?
Not so much LTL (if anything, we were taking LTL business, or trying to, with the heavier weight limits and the Hundred Weight service offerings) but definitely RPS, USPS, and FedEx, a handful of lesser mostly regional companies. RPS and USPS were probably the largest eaters of our market share in the early nineties. UPS still had a dominating 80% of the domestic small package ground market in 97, but that was down from the late 80's when UPS was pretty much the only game in town and closer to 90%. I wish I still had the numbers from the slides I was shown in a meeting in '95 explaining why the district CSTC's were being collapsed, among other cost savings measures. As I said, UPS leadership at the time saw the writing on the wall and wanted to react while the company was in a position of strength.

The company didnt "force" the union to match their $1000 bump but the company had a pretty good understanding of what that offer might and/or would do.
It isn't rocket science to figure that out.

Again, the IBT should have found a way to explain to the membership that there is no way they could match the offer UPS made on benefits, that it would destroy the fund. Instead, they said sure, we'll match it, and kicked the can down the road- so now when the bill comes due it is different leadership that has to be the ones to kick the members in the nuts by telling them benefits have to be slashed in a last ditch effort to save the fund from disappearing altogether. What the IBT has done with central states is criminally immoral, and none of it is on UPS. UPS paid $6B to the fund just to exit it, while still carrying the load for UPS retirees. The fund, through poor management and oversight, was allowed to be invested in more risky investments, and lost pretty much every cent of that $6B in the financial collapse in 08-09. Then, in a colossal act of closing the barn door after the horses got out, the fund managers switched to more conservative investments and managed to miss out on the market recovery that rebuilt my 401K among other things since that time. I have seen some posters here over the years claim UPS bears responsibility for the collapse of CS for making that offer, I find that argument totally misguided. UPS was not trying to have the Teamsters match their offer, UPS was trying with the Last, Best, Final, to force Carey to let the membership vote on that proposal and they hoped the $1K pension increase would entice members to vote yes. They were trying to get to happen in '97 what happened this past year with Freight. Carey, of course, wanted nothing to do with letting the membership vote on that proposal and never allowed it to happen.
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
By the way @brownIEman , the vast majority of hourly I've worked with appreciate the job they have. It used to be a sought after vocation and hard to get your foot in the door. Now, not so much. The employment culture is changing.

The culture is absolutely changing. I saw it before I left. The partnership died and the company certainly felt less loyalty to management employees and hourlies alike. But that reduction in loyalty cuts both ways, and its hard to measure where it starts. One example from when I was an On-Road - one of my drivers called me to let me know the rear door in his P10 was not opening with the key fob. He just stopped delivering and waited for me to get there to help. He even fought me on taking his lunch a little early, he wanted to sit on the clock and wait for help and take his lunch later. When I got there, in 3 seconds I moved the package that had shifted and was blocking the key fob actuator and his truck was good to go. There was, in his mind, zero thought that he should take any initiative whatsoever to resolve the situation himself. In the old days, drivers would have taken pride in the job and taken initiative to resolve issues that they could safely resolve in a minimum time. Basically, they would try to work in the best interests of the employer (I'm sure I've read that somewhere). These days, the mantra is do the minimum necessary and leave the rest for management to worry about. Just pick any thread started by newbies on these boards asking for pointers on doing better, you will see the vast majority of replies is "Don't try to do better, slow down, the slower you go, the more you make". It was not like that in the past, IMHO. I certainly did not feel that way when I was an hourly.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
This sounds really weird to me. The "Last,Best,Final" has been posted by others on the BC, and there was no mention in that of this type of compensation, so what you would seem to be something that was circulated after the LBF during the negotiations going on during the strike. The thing is, those negotiations should have been kept at the table. The idea of a District Manager passing out company proposals on the strike line is very hard for me to buy. For one thing, he would have got his ass beat where I was, and I worked in a building in a RTW state that does not have a very strong militant culture, relatively speaking. Then, once he got his ass beat by the striking teamsters for passing that out, he would have gotten his ass beat by the region manager and corporate management for going around the negotiating committee. A DM doing that during the strike would seriously need to have his head examined. Is there any chance a teamster typed up that stuff and passed it off as an insulting offer from management to keep up morale as the strike dragged on?
Not on the strike line, but I remember right before the strike (maybe a day or two) our center manager was handing out copies of what looked to be a summary of the highlights of the company's LBF. I wish I had saved one, but from what I remember it was a 7 year contract with a raise every other year (70 cents I think) and profit sharing. I can't imagine a center manager decided to do that on his own so it must have been a directive from higher up.
 
F

Frankie's Friend

Guest
NP, always enjoy the exchange of ideas.



This sounds really weird to me. The "Last,Best,Final" has been posted by others on the BC, and there was no mention in that of this type of compensation, so what you would seem to be something that was circulated after the LBF during the negotiations going on during the strike. The thing is, those negotiations should have been kept at the table. The idea of a District Manager passing out company proposals on the strike line is very hard for me to buy. For one thing, he would have got his ass beat where I was, and I worked in a building in a RTW state that does not have a very strong militant culture, relatively speaking. Then, once he got his ass beat by the striking teamsters for passing that out, he would have gotten his ass beat by the region manager and corporate management for going around the negotiating committee. A DM doing that during the strike would seriously need to have his head examined. Is there any chance a teamster typed up that stuff and passed it off as an insulting offer from management to keep up morale as the strike dragged on?


Not so much LTL (if anything, we were taking LTL business, or trying to, with the heavier weight limits and the Hundred Weight service offerings) but definitely RPS, USPS, and FedEx, a handful of lesser mostly regional companies. RPS and USPS were probably the largest eaters of our market share in the early nineties. UPS still had a dominating 80% of the domestic small package ground market in 97, but that was down from the late 80's when UPS was pretty much the only game in town and closer to 90%. I wish I still had the numbers from the slides I was shown in a meeting in '95 explaining why the district CSTC's were being collapsed, among other cost savings measures. As I said, UPS leadership at the time saw the writing on the wall and wanted to react while the company was in a position of strength.



Again, the IBT should have found a way to explain to the membership that there is no way they could match the offer UPS made on benefits, that it would destroy the fund. Instead, they said sure, we'll match it, and kicked the can down the road- so now when the bill comes due it is different leadership that has to be the ones to kick the members in the nuts by telling them benefits have to be slashed in a last ditch effort to save the fund from disappearing altogether. What the IBT has done with central states is criminally immoral, and none of it is on UPS. UPS paid $6B to the fund just to exit it, while still carrying the load for UPS retirees. The fund, through poor management and oversight, was allowed to be invested in more risky investments, and lost pretty much every cent of that $6B in the financial collapse in 08-09. Then, in a colossal act of closing the barn door after the horses got out, the fund managers switched to more conservative investments and managed to miss out on the market recovery that rebuilt my 401K among other things since that time. I have seen some posters here over the years claim UPS bears responsibility for the collapse of CS for making that offer, I find that argument totally misguided. UPS was not trying to have the Teamsters match their offer, UPS was trying with the Last, Best, Final, to force Carey to let the membership vote on that proposal and they hoped the $1K pension increase would entice members to vote yes. They were trying to get to happen in '97 what happened this past year with Freight. Carey, of course, wanted nothing to do with letting the membership vote on that proposal and never allowed it to happen.
Your last sentence explained why the District Mgr and the Division Mgr BOTH passed out the info on the strike line. The management passed out the info two times.
You werent there, I was.
What you think should not have transpired absolutely did at our building.

RPS and the post office was not taking our business in the "nineties" until after 97. The "churn" was the big term and LTL was definitely an issue with hundred weight not really being effective. We couldn't keep "multiples" together from one shipment.
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
Not on the strike line, but I remember right before the strike (maybe a day or two) our center manager was handing out copies of what looked to be a summary of the highlights of the company's LBF. I wish I had saved one, but from what I remember it was a 7 year contract with a raise every other year (70 cents I think) and profit sharing. I can't imagine a center manager decided to do that on his own so it must have been a directive from higher up.

Yes, I think the LBF had raises every other year, then bonuses based on company profits in the intervening years. The LBF definitely came from the top. @Sickofit is saying he saw an offer for raises based on an individual drivers performance. Not calling him a lier, but I never saw anything like that, and where I was management knew not to talk to the folks on the strike line at all unless absolutely necessary, much less pass out any written materials.
 

brownIEman

Well-Known Member
Your last sentence explained why the District Mgr and the Division Mgr BOTH passed out the info on the strike line. The management passed out the info two times.
You werent there, I was.
What you think should not have transpired absolutely did at our building.
I probably was not in your building. I can only speak for where I was and there I never saw anything like what you describe. If you still have it and wouldn't mind posting I'd be curious to see it

RPS and the post office was not taking our business in the "nineties" until after 97. The "churn" was the big term and LTL was definitely an issue with hundred weight not really being effective. We couldn't keep "multiples" together from one shipment.

This is simply not true. Here is an article about RPS' growth from '95

Post office and RPS did take more market share after '97, that is certainly true.
 
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