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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 662806" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>I appreciate that you acknowledge the treaties, conventions but let us both consider this for a moment. We say our country is based on rule of law and obvious not perfect, the human thing, but that's the goal. If we want to maintain true to that ideal, would it not be proper to revisit those agreements and then change the law accordingly to meet the new conditions. Should we not change the law for example that makes it crystal clear that the gov't can wire tap in the interest of public safety? If we are to waterboard, then those treaties and conventions that make this practice questionable should as a matter of law be changed to again meet the new condition.</p><p> </p><p>We live in a world of risk and the fact of the matter is, we always have and we always will. I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind but we also have to accept that the only perfect place of safety and security and where all needs are met daily is a maximum security prison on 24/7 lockdown and I know you're not suggesting anything like that but my point is to ask, how far in that direction are we willing to go and do you or I have the right to drag you or I in that direction if you or I don't want too just so you or I can feel safe at the end of the day? Just as it's equally valid if I don't want to go there, is it right of me to prevent you from that goal? Where's the middle where we both can have what we think we need and still be happy?</p><p> </p><p>Yesterday I went and got a haircut and the guy that cut my hair is from Romania and he grew up in communism. He's a US Citizen now and just loves this country and his christian faith is very important to him. As we talked (I love hearing him talk about old world ways and customs) he told me he was getting afraid for America. I asked why and he seemed reluctant but I told him I believed in true freedom of speech and ideas so he could speak his mind. He said he's watching America move more and more toward the old ways of communism and he does have a unique perspective none of us have to my knowledge. Now I assumed he was talking about the healthcare, etc. debate and the resulting hyperbole of public discussion and when I tired to reassure him that it's just us Americans acting the fool he stopped me. He got me out of the chair and walked me outside the shop. He then pointed up to the cameras at the traffic intersection and said secret police. I tired to again reassure but he then explained his point. He knew right now those cameras were said for one thing but in Romania he said the they had secret police all throughout society, the human version of the traffic camera if you will and at first it was told for our own good and for the security of society. Yet later, it became a tool used by gov't against people to protect itself and serve it's own interests. </p><p> </p><p>I wanted to uttered those most famous words to counter his point, you know the words "but this is America!" but then he asked me had I ever read the Patriot Act and I've read a good bit and acknowledged such. He then asked, "knowing what you saw in the Patriot Act can you stand here and tell me those cameras will never ever become American Secret Police?" And no I could not and the principle reason I could not goes back to my initial point, for the sake of convenience, political convenience if you will, we are not a nation of law anymore. </p><p> </p><p>The very thing that made us unique, that made us different than the mass random mobs that through history so-called democracies tended to morf into, that principle of rule of law we shed, we shed a long time ago in fact and as we fret about some idiot with a ribbed trojan trying to create public havoc, we ignore the best and most powerful weapon the terrorist have and that is us, the American public when we allow ourslves to be overcome and gripped by fear and panic.</p><p> </p><p>And Tie, you and I would agree that fear and panic have been used and manipulated in the area of healthcare, economics, climate change, etc. and yes I also believe that same practice is used by gov't in the area of national security. They did it with the red menace and now with the towelhead terror! Be observant, be vigilant but let's make the bastards prove everything. Stop taking them at their word!</p><p> </p><p>My best to you and your family on this New Year's Day!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 662806, member: 2189"] I appreciate that you acknowledge the treaties, conventions but let us both consider this for a moment. We say our country is based on rule of law and obvious not perfect, the human thing, but that's the goal. If we want to maintain true to that ideal, would it not be proper to revisit those agreements and then change the law accordingly to meet the new conditions. Should we not change the law for example that makes it crystal clear that the gov't can wire tap in the interest of public safety? If we are to waterboard, then those treaties and conventions that make this practice questionable should as a matter of law be changed to again meet the new condition. We live in a world of risk and the fact of the matter is, we always have and we always will. I'm not suggesting we throw caution to the wind but we also have to accept that the only perfect place of safety and security and where all needs are met daily is a maximum security prison on 24/7 lockdown and I know you're not suggesting anything like that but my point is to ask, how far in that direction are we willing to go and do you or I have the right to drag you or I in that direction if you or I don't want too just so you or I can feel safe at the end of the day? Just as it's equally valid if I don't want to go there, is it right of me to prevent you from that goal? Where's the middle where we both can have what we think we need and still be happy? Yesterday I went and got a haircut and the guy that cut my hair is from Romania and he grew up in communism. He's a US Citizen now and just loves this country and his christian faith is very important to him. As we talked (I love hearing him talk about old world ways and customs) he told me he was getting afraid for America. I asked why and he seemed reluctant but I told him I believed in true freedom of speech and ideas so he could speak his mind. He said he's watching America move more and more toward the old ways of communism and he does have a unique perspective none of us have to my knowledge. Now I assumed he was talking about the healthcare, etc. debate and the resulting hyperbole of public discussion and when I tired to reassure him that it's just us Americans acting the fool he stopped me. He got me out of the chair and walked me outside the shop. He then pointed up to the cameras at the traffic intersection and said secret police. I tired to again reassure but he then explained his point. He knew right now those cameras were said for one thing but in Romania he said the they had secret police all throughout society, the human version of the traffic camera if you will and at first it was told for our own good and for the security of society. Yet later, it became a tool used by gov't against people to protect itself and serve it's own interests. I wanted to uttered those most famous words to counter his point, you know the words "but this is America!" but then he asked me had I ever read the Patriot Act and I've read a good bit and acknowledged such. He then asked, "knowing what you saw in the Patriot Act can you stand here and tell me those cameras will never ever become American Secret Police?" And no I could not and the principle reason I could not goes back to my initial point, for the sake of convenience, political convenience if you will, we are not a nation of law anymore. The very thing that made us unique, that made us different than the mass random mobs that through history so-called democracies tended to morf into, that principle of rule of law we shed, we shed a long time ago in fact and as we fret about some idiot with a ribbed trojan trying to create public havoc, we ignore the best and most powerful weapon the terrorist have and that is us, the American public when we allow ourslves to be overcome and gripped by fear and panic. And Tie, you and I would agree that fear and panic have been used and manipulated in the area of healthcare, economics, climate change, etc. and yes I also believe that same practice is used by gov't in the area of national security. They did it with the red menace and now with the towelhead terror! Be observant, be vigilant but let's make the bastards prove everything. Stop taking them at their word! My best to you and your family on this New Year's Day! [/QUOTE]
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