Russian Hack or Iraq WMD Part Deux?

wkmac

Well-Known Member
"At one point we learn that the code name the U.S. intelligence community has given to Russian cyber shenanigans is GRIZZLY STEPPE, a sexy enough detail.

But we don't learn much at all about what led our government to determine a) that these hacks were directed by the Russian government, or b) they were undertaken with the aim of influencing the election, and in particular to help elect Donald Trump.

The problem with this story is that, like the Iraq-WMD mess, it takes place in the middle of a highly politicized environment during which the motives of all the relevant actors are suspect. Nothing quite adds up."


Matt Taibbi in Rolling Stone

Something About This Russia Story Stinks


 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
In the same article linked above we read the following:

"The New York Times was more aggressive, writing flatly, "Obama Strikes Back at Russia for Election Hacking." It backed up its story with a link to a joint FBI/Homeland Security report that details how Russian civilian and military intelligence services (termed "RIS" in the report) twice breached the defenses of "a U.S. political party," presumably the Democrats."

Yet in early December there were reports of computer hacks of election computers in several States (Georgia being the first) and the hacker's IP was the Dept. of Homeland Security. Is DHS now claiming after the fact that "Russia did it" to cover its own tracks?

Homeland Security tied to attempted hack of Georgia's election database: Report
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
In the same article linked above we read the following:

"The New York Times was more aggressive, writing flatly, "Obama Strikes Back at Russia for Election Hacking." It backed up its story with a link to a joint FBI/Homeland Security report that details how Russian civilian and military intelligence services (termed "RIS" in the report) twice breached the defenses of "a U.S. political party," presumably the Democrats."

Yet in early December there were reports of computer hacks of election computers in several States (Georgia being the first) and the hacker's IP was the Dept. of Homeland Security. Is DHS now claiming after the fact that "Russia did it" to cover its own tracks?

Homeland Security tied to attempted hack of Georgia's election database: Report

The GOP narrative will remain an attack on our intelligence community for getting WMDs wrong. That doesn't mean they were wrong about Russia.

Trump has already alienated most of our population, the world, and now our own intelligence community.

He'll be a great president (intentional small p).
 

scratch

Least Best Moderator
Staff member
The US, Russia, China, and other countries have been hacking into each other for decades. I find it amusing that the losers are using this as a poor excuse for an election they thought was in the bag.
 

MAKAVELI

Well-Known Member
The US, Russia, China, and other countries have been hacking into each other for decades. I find it amusing that the losers are using this as a poor excuse for an election they thought was in the bag.
Yea, hacking into one of the political parties emails and releasing them to try to affect the outcome of a presidential election happens all the time. Yea right. Now if this had happened to the GOP, they'd be screaming the election was rigged. Oh that's right, Drumpf did say it was rigged.:poop:
 

bbsam

Moderator
Staff member
The US, Russia, China, and other countries have been hacking into each other for decades. I find it amusing that the losers are using this as a poor excuse for an election they thought was in the bag.
Last I checked, Lindsay Graham and John McCain were members of the party that won.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member

wkmac

Well-Known Member
15826793_1289483971099788_5897059818240782208_n.jpg
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
Good article, but aren't we talking about degrees of influence here? Obama definitely tried on influence the Brexit, and undoubtedly has tried to influence Israeli politics too. But did our government knowingly hack into any other countries electoral process with the definite goal of helping the preferred candidate win?

No.

Who told you that ?
Another high ranking official who wants to stay anonymous ?
Could it be the same source that our intelligence agencies used ?
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
The US, Russia, China, and other countries have been hacking into each other for decades. I find it amusing that the losers are using this as a poor excuse for an election they thought was in the bag.

That is very true but lets focus a few minutes on the USA specifically since at the moment, our so-called "intelligence" services are the ones crying foul against the Russians. Now being echoed by certain vested political interests who are turning it into a whole cloth narrative and ignoring the history of its rags.

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden among his many revelations also revealed that so-called intelligence spying was as much about industrial espionage as it was about some form of defense intelligence. But then protecting certain privileged economic interests whose value to the existing State power might be seen as defense but this opens a door into what the real purpose of military defense and intelligence gathering is really all about thus the Marine General Smedley Butler's statement "War is a Racket!"

Program Echelon was code name for a signals intelligence op begun in the 1960's but has continued into such contemporary programs as Mystic and Prism. But in the 1990's under the Clinton Presidency, charges began to surface that Echelon was being used by the US for the purpose of industrial espionage. Under the heading "Concerns" at the Wikipedia article on Echelon, some of those charges are discussed.

The fact that our so-called intelligence structure is heavily focused on economics should come as no surprise as British Intelligence on which for example our CIA via OSS was modeled was admittedly modeled after British Intelligence. In fact, from the CIA's own website, they admit as much with the following statement:

"When the OSS was created in 1942, its leader Gen. William J. Donovan had not intended for it to be an organization of spies. Donovan originally wanted OSS to support military operations in the field. However, he soon realized the value of clandestine human reporting. The OSS was modeled after British intelligence organizations and consisted of three branches....."

As you (Scratch) correctly stated, all nationstates in some form spy for and even on one another and this includes on the political order of any given country. Knowledge is power and having such knowledge especially to understand outcomes, especially domestic outcomes aids the spying country in its own self interests.

Hillary is a cold war hawk just a Graham and McCain are. Fact is they all share a certain common thread in neo-conservative approaches that want to maintain what is called The New Great Game. One doesn't have to like or dislike Russia to understand why Russia might favor a Trump Presidency over Clinton just on that point alone. But also understanding the hostility of the west against Russia and to varying degrees Russia's hostility back to the west, one needs to understand the 19th century drama known as "The Great Game" and what some call the 20th century version, "The New Great Game." It's all about empire and how to position one's self to maintain a desired advantage, especially economically. Clinton comes from this narrative while Trump does not. But also spying on the election also gives Russia an advantage in that if they discovered political conspiracy and intrigue for example in the Clinton camp which everyone expected to win, they could use this information as leverage, even blackmail to benefit their own ends and hold a Clinton administration hostage with threat of going public to expose to the American public. From that POV I can see why the Russians would be far more interested in spying on Clinton and the democrats as opposed to Trump and the GOP. That likely has changed now as Trump is elected and maybe Graham and McCain's siding with the "Russians are spying" crowd might be more about protecting their own dirty laundry from the light of day than about some false notion of fair play!

From the CIA website once again, here is just one example of the games being played and the factors behind it but more important this example cut teeth that still negatively effect us today. Even the Wahhabism of today and its implications of strife are as much a product of both British and American machinations as it is anything else.

It should also be noted that Ian Fleming who authored the James Bonds figure and who himself served in intelligence work fashioned an MI6 agent in James Bond whose nememis were often not state type enemies but rather business interests or business individuals that opposed or threatened the British economic order. Fleming was telling us something about what the nature of intelligence gathering was really all about but we are more easily captured by the hot women, fast cars and things that go boom. Which leads to why we are easily taken in by political narratives and never questioning the deeper vested interests at play when you drill down that rabbit hole.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
Who told you that ?
Another high ranking official who wants to stay anonymous ?
Could it be the same source that our intelligence agencies used ?

You're a "Muslim", so you're not to be trusted. notice how Trump is still trying to minimize the Russian hack. Wonder why? Maybe he'd prefer that any further investigations be stopped so we don't find out even more, including Trump's possible personal involvement.

And quit demeaning our intelligence agencies. Dubya absolutely wanted any excuse possible to go back into Iraq. The "proof" was always circumstantial at best.
 

Babagounj

Strength through joy
You're a "Muslim", so you're not to be trusted. notice how Trump is still trying to minimize the Russian hack. Wonder why? Maybe he'd prefer that any further investigations be stopped so we don't find out even more, including Trump's possible personal involvement.

And quit demeaning our intelligence agencies. Dubya absolutely wanted any excuse possible to go back into Iraq. The "proof" was always circumstantial at best.
I am a christian.
أنا مسيحي.
 

MrFedEx

Engorged Member
I am a christian.
أنا مسيحي.

NO!! You're a Muslim because you know the language and everyone knows that once you're born a Muslim, you are ALWAYS a Muslim and hate all Christians and Jews. Where is your Birth Certificate? have you been properly vetted? How about your family? Maybe you should be deported.

See how it feels? I have zero doubt you're a Christian, but your buddy Trump leveled all of the above at Obama (and started the rest of the dialogue) for approximately 5 years, all to bring himself into the limelight and energize the deplorable base.

That's a demagogue, with demagogue tactics. You're a "suspect" amongst your own crowd now.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Boris is going to be a Trump advisor, Natasha is going to be ambassador to Cuba, and Fearless Leader has been appointed Secretary of Defense.

Actually I've always seen the 3 of them move from administration to administration regardless who is elected.

Contrary to the narratives of either side when it comes to Trump, once again at the end of the day any Trump administration would just be a rinse and repeat of any previous.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
NO!! You're a Muslim because you know the language and everyone knows that once you're born a Muslim, you are ALWAYS a Muslim and hate all Christians and Jews. Where is your Birth Certificate? have you been properly vetted? How about your family? Maybe you should be deported.

See how it feels? I have zero doubt you're a Christian, but your buddy Trump leveled all of the above at Obama (and started the rest of the dialogue) for approximately 5 years, all to bring himself into the limelight and energize the deplorable base.

That's a demagogue, with demagogue tactics. You're a "suspect" amongst your own crowd now.

Now you are stating to sound as irrational as Baba.

Oh Wait!!!!!!!
 
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