Standing Up to the ACLU

Fredless

APWA Hater
They follow the constitution? Oh really? That is funny because I've been looking over the Constitution to try and find exactly where it says that there is to be a "seperation of church and state" and I still haven't found it.


Even though I'd like to stand behind my fellow southerner here...I disagree with you.

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/phrase.htm

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


...it is my personal opinion, that before I die (theoretically speaking I make it to 75 years of age) science will find out where that singularity of infinitely dense matter came from originally, which gave birth to everything we know in existance. Until science can prove who/what or how that singularity came from, I will hang on and believe in a greater power.

However, cram it down my neighbor's throats? Never.
 

traveler

Where next? Venice
The first Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise therof"

The Supreme court has upheld this provision and if you like I can give you the case history.

The first Amendment does say just as you quoted... BUT it does not speak to a "separation of church and state" but merely that "Congress shall make no law" It does not prohibit states from having a prayer said in schools nor does it prohibit Nativity scenes nor any other recognition of religion. I do not believe that that was even an implied reason for that amendment. Witness the Ten Commandments displayed prominently in the Supreme Court building and in many other official buildings in Washington DC. Witness the reference to GOD and to scriptures in many official buildings. I do believe there are folks out there who would like it to have eliminated all references to God or the Bible but that would clearly take another amendment which I doubt could ever pass.

Personally I take a neutral standpoint on this nonsense and feel that far too much weight is placed on the few people out there who seem to be constantly offended by religious displays, etc.

In God we trust... hope no one is offended. If you are, please feel free to send me any US currency that bears that motto. (coins too!)
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
The phrase "separation of church and state" was coined by Thomas Jefferson himself, in reference to the establishment clause.
Thomas Jefferson said:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

James Madison was the principal drafter of the first amendment, and he was also pretty big on the separation of church and state:
James Madison said:
Notwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, and the full establishment of it in some parts of our country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Government and Religion neither can be duly supported. Such, indeed, is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded against. And in a Government of opinion like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together.-Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

James Madison on the first amendment:

Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).

That would pretty clearly preclude having a state mandated school prayer, given that since 1868 the bill of rights has been broadly applied to limit state and local governments as well.
 

Overpaid Union Thug

Well-Known Member
The first Amendment states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free excercise therof"

The Supreme court has upheld this provision and if you like I can give you the case history.

There isn't any part of that sentence that states that there shall be a seperation of church and state. We all know how the court has twisted and warped that to match their own beliefs. Mostly Liberal judges. Thats all I need to know about the case history. That is why I believe most Liberals don't belong in the courts. Especially on the bench. "Moderate" Liberals yes but do those even exist anymore?
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
That would pretty clearly preclude having a state mandated school prayer, given that since 1868 the bill of rights has been broadly applied to limit state and local governments as well.


It was not as clear as you would like. The decision was 5-4.

From the dissent.

The Establishment Clause does not require that the public sector be insulated from all things which may have a religious significance or origin. This Court has recognized that "religion has been closely identified with our history and government," Abington School District, supra at 374 U. S. 212, and that "[t]he history of man is inseparable from the history of religion," Engel v. Vitale, 370 U. S. 421, 434 (1962).
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
Abingdon was decided 8-1

Engel vs Vitale was 6-1(2 justices did not vote)

I thought you were talking about the Stone v. Graham. It was 230 in the morning. So from the decision you want.

The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.

And also this makes it seem not as clear as you would like.

Viewed in this light, it seems to me clear that the records in both of the cases before us are wholly inadequate to support an informed or responsible decision. Both cases involve provisions which explicitly permit any student who wishes, to be excused from participation in the exercises. There is no evidence in either case as to whether there would exist any coercion of any kind upon a student who did not want to participate. No evidence at all was adduced in the Murray case, because it was decided upon a demurrer. All that we have in that case, therefore, is the conclusory language of a pleading. While such conclusory allegations are acceptable for procedural purposes, I think that the nature of the constitutional problem involved here clearly demands that no decision be made except upon evidence. In the Schempp case, the record shows no more than a subjective prophecy by a parent of what he thought would happen if a request were made to be excused from participation in the exercises under the amended statute. No such request was ever made, and there is no evidence whatever as to what might or would actually happen, nor of what administrative arrangements the school actually might or could make to free from pressure of any kind those who do not want to participate in the exercises. There were no District Court findings on this issue, since the case under the amended statute was decided exclusively on Establishment Clause grounds.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
I thought you were talking about the Stone v. Graham. It was 230 in the morning. So from the decision you want.

And also this makes it seem not as clear as you would like.
Hmm, we were talking about state mandated school prayer(at least I was), so I'm not sure why you would pick Stone vs Graham out of the air. The issue in that case was related but not the same, as Kentucky was claiming that the ten commandments were posted for secular, not religious reasons. Abingdon and Engel v Vitale were the cases that you brought up and both dealt directly with state mandated school prayer. 8-1 is about as clear as I would like on that subject, the same as it was in 1948 (Mcollum v Board of education)

Did you write the following, or are you quoting someone?

Viewed in this light, it seems to me clear that the records in both of the cases before us are wholly inadequate to support an informed or responsible decision. Both cases involve provisions which explicitly permit any student who wishes, to be excused from participation in the exercises. There is no evidence in either case as to whether there would exist any coercion of any kind upon a student who did not want to participate. No evidence at all was adduced in the Murray case, because it was decided upon a demurrer. All that we have in that case, therefore, is the conclusory language of a pleading. While such conclusory allegations are acceptable for procedural purposes, I think that the nature of the constitutional problem involved here clearly demands that no decision be made except upon evidence. In the Schempp case, the record shows no more than a subjective prophecy by a parent of what he thought would happen if a request were made to be excused from participation in the exercises under the amended statute. No such request was ever made, and there is no evidence whatever as to what might or would actually happen, nor of what administrative arrangements the school actually might or could make to free from pressure of any kind those who do not want to participate in the exercises. There were no District Court findings on this issue, since the case under the amended statute was decided exclusively on Establishment Clause grounds.

By the way, if you have any doubts as to how clear a 5-4 decision by the Supreme court is, just ask the president ;)

In closing, you might want to double check your new signature

Misquoting Lincoln
 
Last edited:

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
In closing, you might want to double check your new signature

Misquoting Lincoln


No thanks. Even the article you linked the author said he put it in quotes. I personally do not know what he said or did not say but just to be safe I will give him credit for the quote since so many people do.

You asked if I wrote the above myself. I just pasted it from the written decision. That is why I said it was from the decision.I say again it is not as clear an issue as you would like. There have been multiple supreme court cases on religion in schools. If it were such a clear issue the court would not have to keep hearing them.

This is from the case that may have started it all.

"Today, approximately two thousand communities in all but two states provide religious education in cooperation with the public schools for more than a million and a half of pupils."

and

Many uses of religious material in the public schools in a manner that has some religious significance have been sanctioned by state courts. These practices have been permitted: reading selections from the King James Bible without comment; reading the Bible and repeating the Lord's Prayer; teaching the Ten Commandments; saying prayers, and using textbooks based upon the Bible and emphasizing its fundamental teachings. When conducted in a sectarian manner, reading from the Bible and singing hymns in the school's morning exercise have been prohibited, as has using the Bible as a textbook. There is a conflict of authority on the question of the constitutionality of wearing religious garb while teaching in the public schools. It has been held to be constitutional for school authorities to prohibit the reading of the Bible in the public schools. There is a conflict of authority on the constitutionality of the use of public school buildings for religious services held outside of school hours. The constitutionality, under state constitutions, of furnishing free textbooks and free transportation to parochial school children is in conflict. See Nichols v. Henry, 301 Ky. 434, 191 S.W.2d 930; Findley v. City of Conneaut, 12 Ohio Supp. 161. The earlier cases are collected in 5 A.L.R. 866 and 141 A.L.R. 1144.

That was from 1948 I did not see a case earlier than that.




This is from the supreme court case in 1992 about prayer in school.

In that letter Jefferson penned his famous lines that the Establishment Clause built "a wall of separation between church and State." Ibid. Davis considered that "[t]he first amendment to the Constitution ... was intended ... to prohibit legislation for the support of any religious tenets, or the modes of worship of any sect." 133 U. S., at 342. In another case, Bradfield v. Roberts, 175 U. S. 291 (1899), the Court held that it did not violate the Establishment Clause for Congress to construct a hospital building for caring for poor patients, although the hospital was managed by sisters of the Roman Catholic Church. The Court reasoned: "That the influence of any particular church may be powerful over the members of a non-sectarian and secular corporation, incorporated for a certain defined purpose and with clearly stated powers, is surely not sufficient to convert such a corporation into a religious or sectarian body." Id., at 298. Finally, in 1908 the Court held that "the spirit of the Constitution" did not prohibit the Indians from using their money, held by the United States Government, for religious education. See Quick Bear v. Leupp, 210 U. S. 50, 81.

And that was from the majority opinion.


And of course from the minority side.

I must add one final observation: The Founders of our Republic knew the fearsome potential of sectarian religious belief to generate civil dissension and civil strife. And they also knew that nothing, absolutely nothing, is so inclined to foster among religious believers of various faiths a toleration-no, an affection-for one another than voluntarily joining in prayer together, to the God whom they all worship and seek. Needless to say, no one should be compelled to do that, but it is a shame to deprive our public culture of the opportunity, and indeed the encouragement, for people to do it voluntarily.


I added the underline just to show my point that it is not as clear as some think.


On the more modern cases you can even watch the oral arguments on supreme.justia.com. It is kind of interesting to see just how narrow the points are that they are fighting over.
 
Last edited:

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
av8torntn said:
No thanks. Even the article you linked the author said he put it in quotes. I personally do not know what he said or did not say but just to be safe I will give him credit for the quote since so many people do.

I'm not sure what article you read, but it wasn't the one I linked (either that or you badly misread it, I notice you were posting at 0230 again). Here is the quote from J. Michael Waller when he was contacted by Fact Check.org:

J. Michael Waller: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to correct this important issue. The supposed quote in question is not a quote at all, and I never intended it to be construed as one. It was my lead sentence in the article that a copy editor mistakenly turned into a quote by incorrectly inserting quotation marks.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]The only reason anybody thinks Lincoln said it is because of the article that Waller wrote, and Waller himself has admitted that it was completely wrong.

Here's Diana Irey, the republican candidate who used the fake quote in a speech attacking Jack Murtha:

[/FONT]
Diana Irey, Aug. 25: Today I became aware for the first time that a line I used in a May press conference was not, in fact, a quote from Abraham Lincoln. It was a mistake to say the line came from President Lincoln, and the mistake was mine. I apologize.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]
Lincoln never said any such thing, in fact it would have been out of character for him to say something like that.

[/FONT]
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what article you read, but it wasn't the one I linked [FONT=Times New Roman, Times][/FONT]

"I'm surprised it has been repeated as often as you say."


Waller might have put the phrase in italics

Waller's article still suggests that Lincoln might have said it,

In a famous letter to Democratic Rep. Erastus Corning dated June 12, 1863, Lincoln defended the military trial and the attendant suspension of habeas corpus, and at one point referring to Vallandigham as an agitator who had been urging soldiers to desert:

It is true that Lincoln temporarily exiled a former member of Congress, Democrat Clement Vallandigham of Ohio

encouraging draft evasion or desertion may fall under the broad heading of "undermining the military".


All from the article you linked. Like I said even the author of your article does not know exactly what Lincoln said but he does seem to understand that people do give that quote to him and this is why he wrote the article.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
av8torntn said:
Waller's article still suggests that Lincoln might have said it

I'm not sure if you're having trouble with the article or if you're just being obtuse. Waller himself was crystal clear:

Waller said:
The supposed quote in question is not a quote at all, and I never intended it to be construed as one.

I'm not sure I understand your justification for continuing to misrepresent Abraham Lincoln. It seems to me you're saying that:

"Lincoln might have said it, therefore I can tell people that he did say it"

Lincoln might have said all sorts of things, that doesn't mean it's ok to go around making up quotes.

Even Waller and Diana Irey understand that much.
 

av8torntn

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if you're having trouble with the article or if you're just being obtuse. Waller himself was crystal clear:



I'm not sure I understand your justification for continuing to misrepresent Abraham Lincoln. It seems to me you're saying that:

"Lincoln might have said it, therefore I can tell people that he did say it"

Lincoln might have said all sorts of things, that doesn't mean it's ok to go around making up quotes.

Even Waller and Diana Irey understand that much.


I know you are having lots of trouble with this. I will try one more time. I did not make up that Lincoln said that. Your article seems to prove that I did not make it up. More people than me would give that quote to Lincoln. Your article says that. I was going to change it but since it seems to annoy you so much I will leave it for now. I say that. Since neither I nor you nor your article seems to know that he did not say it and so many other people attribute it to him I will leave it for now. Again thank you for your concern and thank you for the change of subject.

Oh and one more thing your article said Waller put it in italics in the original copy. I do not know him but my guess would be that this was no mistake. You are right about one thing Lincoln is thought to be misquoted on many topics.

Oh and some politician changed her position on something I must say that I am shocked. That must be the first time that has happened.

So let me make sure I understand what you are saying. Lincoln may have said it but I should not give him credit. What if I find an internet article that says otherwise? Do not worry I probably will not look.

Sorry I could not resist.

Lincoln replied by suspending habeas corpus, by instituting a secret police, and by arbitrarily arresting without warrants or due process thousands of leading citizens of Northern cities, state legislators, U.S. Congressmen, newspaper owners and editors, ministers, bankers, policemen--literally everyone who expressed the slightest reservation about Lincoln’s aims and means or who was anonymously denounced by a rival or envious neighbor.

From an article by Craig Roberts. It also seems like Rep. Don Young attributed that quote to Lincoln as well.

Just did a very quick google search and it seems like this Waller guy really got the liberal nuts all worked up with his quote. I think that may be why he backed off of it. There were thousands of articles about this. I am glad to do my little part to keep the liberals angry. I will not respond to anything else on this I already grow tired of your change of subject.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
av8orntn said:
More people than me would give that quote to Lincoln.
Who?
av8torntn said:
Your article says that.
Where?

av8torntn said:
Since neither I nor you nor your article seems to know that he did not say it and so many other people attribute it to him
Who are these "other people" you keep referring to?

av8orntn said:
Oh and one more thing your article said Waller put it in italics in the original copy. I do not know him but my guess would be that this was no mistake.
Once again, here is what Waller actually had to say about it:
Waller said:
The supposed quote in question is not a quote at all, and I never intended it to be construed as one.

av8torntn said:
Lincoln may have said it but I should not give him credit.
That's correct. If you don't know that someone said something, you shouldn't go around telling people that they did (There's a word for that, you know)

av8torntn said:
What if I find an internet article that says otherwise? Do not worry I probably will not look.
I'm not surprised.

av8orntn said:
It also seems like Rep. Don Young attributed that quote to Lincoln as well.
You mean this Don Young?
On February 15, 2007 Congressman Young attributed to Abraham Lincoln "Congressmen who willfully take action during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs, and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged." The quote was actually made by J Michael Waller in 2003 who attributed it to Lincoln; when informed of this, the Congressman apologized for the misattribution


 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
av8torntn said:
Refer to your post number 30 or just read the article you linked to.
Are you actually talking about Waller and Irey?

Once again, here's Waller:
The supposed quote in question is not a quote at all, and I never intended it to be construed as one. It was my lead sentence in the article that a copy editor mistakenly turned into a quote by incorrectly inserting quotation marks.
and here's Irey:

Today I became aware for the first time that a line I used in a May press conference was not, in fact, a quote from Abraham Lincoln. It was a mistake to say the line came from President Lincoln, and the mistake was mine. I apologize.

Here's you :)
I will not respond to anything else on this I already grow tired of your change of subject.
 

Jones

fILE A GRIEVE!
Staff member
So you admit you were playing dumb and you knew other people used it as a quote? nice
The issue was never whether or not other people were as easily duped as you were (sadly, that's a given), but whether or not that was an actual quote from Lincoln.

At least Irey had the good grace to admit she was mistaken :wink2:
 
Top