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<blockquote data-quote="wkmac" data-source="post: 2771710" data-attributes="member: 2189"><p>I often hear the claim about terrorist groups getting their hands on WMD and then deploy such in a terrorist action. Any scenario is possible but I remain skeptical that such is plausible. For one, in the case of extreme islamic terrorism, this has been a threat over the last 3 decades and we've yet to see such an action here in the US. If such were going to occur, I would think the opportunity to acquire such weapons over the last 3 decades with all the chaos in the Middle East would have presented itself. </p><p></p><p>In the case of the recent events in Syria concerning Sarin, I got curious about the shelf life. Sarin was created in 1938' by IG Farben intended as a pesticide but obviously that was not what they got in the end. Often pesticides (we're way beyond household bug spray here) have a very limited shelf life. Thus the question arises, what is the shelf life of Sarin gas? Reading the article on Sarin gas in Wikipedia, this is what was said concerning the shelf life of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#Degradation_and_shelf_life" target="_blank"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Sarin Gas</strong></span></a>.</p><p></p><p><em>"The most important chemical reactions of phosphoryl halides is the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolysis" target="_blank">hydrolysis</a> of the bond between phosphorus and the fluoride. This P-friend bond is easily broken by nucleophilic agents, such as water and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxide" target="_blank">hydroxide</a>. At high <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH" target="_blank">pH</a>, sarin decomposes rapidly to nontoxic <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphonic_acid" target="_blank">phosphonic acid</a> derivatives.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-23" target="_blank">[23]</a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-24" target="_blank">[24]</a> The initial breakdown of sarin is into isopropyl methylphosphonic acid (IMPA), a chemical that is not commonly found in nature except as a breakdown product of sarin (this is useful for detecting the recent deployment of sarin as a weapon). IMPA then degrades into methylphosphonic acid (MPA), which can also be produced by other organophosphates.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-25" target="_blank">[25]</a></em></p><p></p><p><em>Sarin without the residual acid removed degrades after a period of several weeks to several months. The shelf life can be shortened by impurities in precursor materials. According to the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA" target="_blank">CIA</a>, some Iraqi sarin had a shelf life of only a few weeks, owing mostly to impure precursors.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-26" target="_blank">[26]</a></em></p><p></p><p><em>Along with nerve agents such as <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_%28nerve_agent%29" target="_blank">tabun</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_%28nerve_agent%29" target="_blank">VX</a>, sarin can have a short shelf life. Therefore, it is usually stored as two separate precursors that produce sarin when combined.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-27" target="_blank">[27]</a> Sarin's shelf life can be extended by increasing the purity of the precursor and intermediates and incorporating <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabilizer_%28chemistry%29" target="_blank">stabilizers</a> such as <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributylamine" target="_blank">tributylamine</a>. In some formulations, tributylamine is replaced by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diisopropylcarbodiimide" target="_blank">diisopropylcarbodiimide</a> (DIC), allowing sarin to be stored in <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium" target="_blank">aluminium</a> casings. In <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_chemical_weapon" target="_blank">binary chemical weapons</a>, the two precursors are stored separately in the same <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_%28projectile%29" target="_blank">shell</a> and mixed to form the agent immediately before or when the shell is in flight. This approach has the dual benefit of solving the stability issue and increasing the safety of sarin munitions."</em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Since Sarin needs such care just to preserve its viability, I remain skeptical a terrorist group would ever use it when other forms of terror weapons are more effective and less vulnerable. But there is one possible scenario where it does make sense and that is if a State entity gives a terrorist or terrorist group Sarin as a means to advance another agenda through the acts of said terrorists.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="wkmac, post: 2771710, member: 2189"] I often hear the claim about terrorist groups getting their hands on WMD and then deploy such in a terrorist action. Any scenario is possible but I remain skeptical that such is plausible. For one, in the case of extreme islamic terrorism, this has been a threat over the last 3 decades and we've yet to see such an action here in the US. If such were going to occur, I would think the opportunity to acquire such weapons over the last 3 decades with all the chaos in the Middle East would have presented itself. In the case of the recent events in Syria concerning Sarin, I got curious about the shelf life. Sarin was created in 1938' by IG Farben intended as a pesticide but obviously that was not what they got in the end. Often pesticides (we're way beyond household bug spray here) have a very limited shelf life. Thus the question arises, what is the shelf life of Sarin gas? Reading the article on Sarin gas in Wikipedia, this is what was said concerning the shelf life of [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#Degradation_and_shelf_life'][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Sarin Gas[/B][/COLOR][/URL]. [I]"The most important chemical reactions of phosphoryl halides is the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolysis']hydrolysis[/URL] of the bond between phosphorus and the fluoride. This P-friend bond is easily broken by nucleophilic agents, such as water and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxide']hydroxide[/URL]. At high [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH']pH[/URL], sarin decomposes rapidly to nontoxic [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphonic_acid']phosphonic acid[/URL] derivatives.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-23'][23][/URL][URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-24'][24][/URL] The initial breakdown of sarin is into isopropyl methylphosphonic acid (IMPA), a chemical that is not commonly found in nature except as a breakdown product of sarin (this is useful for detecting the recent deployment of sarin as a weapon). IMPA then degrades into methylphosphonic acid (MPA), which can also be produced by other organophosphates.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-25'][25][/URL][/I] [I]Sarin without the residual acid removed degrades after a period of several weeks to several months. The shelf life can be shortened by impurities in precursor materials. According to the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA']CIA[/URL], some Iraqi sarin had a shelf life of only a few weeks, owing mostly to impure precursors.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-26'][26][/URL][/I] [I]Along with nerve agents such as [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_%28nerve_agent%29']tabun[/URL] and [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_%28nerve_agent%29']VX[/URL], sarin can have a short shelf life. Therefore, it is usually stored as two separate precursors that produce sarin when combined.[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin#cite_note-27'][27][/URL] Sarin's shelf life can be extended by increasing the purity of the precursor and intermediates and incorporating [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabilizer_%28chemistry%29']stabilizers[/URL] such as [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributylamine']tributylamine[/URL]. In some formulations, tributylamine is replaced by [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diisopropylcarbodiimide']diisopropylcarbodiimide[/URL] (DIC), allowing sarin to be stored in [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium']aluminium[/URL] casings. In [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_chemical_weapon']binary chemical weapons[/URL], the two precursors are stored separately in the same [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_%28projectile%29']shell[/URL] and mixed to form the agent immediately before or when the shell is in flight. This approach has the dual benefit of solving the stability issue and increasing the safety of sarin munitions." [/I] Since Sarin needs such care just to preserve its viability, I remain skeptical a terrorist group would ever use it when other forms of terror weapons are more effective and less vulnerable. But there is one possible scenario where it does make sense and that is if a State entity gives a terrorist or terrorist group Sarin as a means to advance another agenda through the acts of said terrorists. [/QUOTE]
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