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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Other Side" data-source="post: 833800" data-attributes="member: 17969">Trip, Our history is clouded with opinions. Some true, some untrue. Religion is one of those things that has transitioned over the years of this country, and some have been able to exploit its membership/following for both good and bad reasons. One of the biggest falsehoods about America lies with our founding. We hear that our founding fathers wanted this or they wanted that, and yet, the record speaks for itself. Of the founding fathers, only John Jay was a recognized christian. John Jay tried to make christianity a part of the consitution but was rejected for contrarian beliefs. In fact, two important facts were written into our constitution. The first being that NO candidate shall have to be of ANY religious faith to run for elected office. The second says that the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SHALL NOT HAVE AN ESTABLISHED RELIGION. This one clearly eliminates the idea that the USA was founded on christianity. While the founders with the exception of John Jay considered themselves DEIST, the were scientist and not religious zealots. They hated the world they fled because of its decades of blood letting and strife surrounding forced religion. They all wrote many things giving perspective to their thoughts and I dont have the time nor desired to post them all here. What I will do, is highlight a few quotes that give an insight to their thought process. Thomas Jefferson:"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."  "On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."  "It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."  Benjamin Franklin:". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."  "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."  "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." JAMES MADISON:"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."  "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."  THOMAS PAINE: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God.  It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. "What is it the New Testament teaches us?  To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith." "We do not admit the authority of the church with respect to its pretended infallibility, its manufactured miracles, its setting itself up to forgive sins.  It was by propagating that belief and supporting it with fire that she kept up her temporal power." "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church,  nor by any Church that I know of.  My own mind is my own Church.  Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."  I can go on and on for hours, but I think you can get the picture from this very small sampling of thoughts. Indeed, christianity is here, but its not a part of our founding, no more than Jehovahs Witness, Catholic, Jewish, Budist, Muslim or Atheism. The founders were closer to accepting Atheism than they were Christianity. I hope this helps you understand the point. Peace.</blockquote>

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