What would you do - 200 years ago

[dilligaf]

Danny, it's funny that you bring up the confederate flag. When I read Trp's post I was going to say something about this same thing, although not the situation you pointed out. Not being from the South or the Northeast, I wasn't quite sure how to approach it. I don't really have any frame of reference to use.

So I will put it this way. To me a flag is a flag. I don't think it necessarily equates to any one action or agenda but instead represents as a whole. So to respond to you Danny, I would say that it should not be an issue. If a black person were wearing a Confederate Flag, I would take it to mean that he has some personal attachment to the Southern States. Probably born and raised in the South but it wouldn't matter.

Regardless of what happened in history (why the Confederate Flag came to be), the Confederate Flag will always be used as a representation of the Southern States. It doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. People will always read whatever they feel into the situation. Sometimes, rightfully so, sometimes not. Does this make any sense?

 

[dannyboy]

Re: what would you do

Dil

The confederate flag came into being as a symbol of the confederate states rights to self determination.

Unfortunatly, one of the worst organizations known as the KKK began to mis use it for their own adgenda, and because of that misuse, it began its linkage with racists.

But as such it has been an object of focus for activists to proclaim that it is a symbol of slavery and racism. Which of course serious students of history will tell a different story.

But then to the victor belongs the right of writing the history books meant for general consumption......

d

 

[dilligaf]

Re: what would you do

Dil

The confederate flag came into being as a symbol of the confederate states rights to self determination.

Unfortunatly, one of the worst organizations known as the KKK began to mis use it for their own adgenda, and because of that misuse, it began its linkage with racists.

But as such it has been an object of focus for activists to proclaim that it is a symbol of slavery and racism. Which of course serious students of history will tell a different story.

But then to the victor belongs the right of writing the history books meant for general consumption......

d

And I think you answered my question (making sense) and your owm conundrum. If you look at it (the flag) at its very core representation and set aside all other agends associated with it, you have an answer.

 

[bellesotico]

Re: what would you do

Dil

The confederate flag came into being as a symbol of the confederate states rights to self determination.

Unfortunatly, one of the worst organizations known as the KKK began to mis use it for their own adgenda, and because of that misuse, it began its linkage with racists.

The KKK became prominent at the end of the civil war during Reconstruction. The confederate flag became a symbol of intimidation and hate during this time.


But as such it has been an object of focus for activists to proclaim that it is a symbol of slavery and racism. Which of course serious students of history will tell a different story.

I would like to think that I am a serious student of history having learned utilizing the Socratic method. As such it is important to note that many historians claim little or no substantial value in the cultural or historical preservation of the confederate flag.
To ignore its symbolic roots is like denying the symbolism of a flag bearing the swastika in Germany during the holocaust.


But then to the victor belongs the right of writing the history books meant for general consumption......

d

 

[pickup]

Re: what would you do

Dil

The confederate flag came into being as a symbol of the confederate states rights to self determination.

Unfortunatly, one of the worst organizations known as the KKK began to mis use it for their own adgenda, and because of that misuse, it began its linkage with racists.

But as such it has been an object of focus for activists to proclaim that it is a symbol of slavery and racism. Which of course serious students of history will tell a different story.

But then to the victor belongs the right of writing the history books meant for general consumption......

d

Very true, danny. Its not what the flag has on it but the person's beliefs who put it on the pole or who is waving it You can have a demonstration and a counter demonstration at an abortion clinic and you might see american flags in the camps of both warring parties. Same flag, but totally diametrically opposed belief systems in the holders of the flags and yet both camps believe that the flags they are flying stands for what they stand for.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: what would you do

The KKK became prominent at the end of the civil war during Reconstruction. The confederate flag became a symbol of intimidation and hate during this time.

Belle

Tell me something, did the KKK not terrorize a lot of white folks?

Do you know what the ratio of "African American" to other racial groups were when it comes to deaths caused by the KKK?

And tell me, was reconstruction a good thing for the south?

And one last question, what was Robert E Lee's view of 1, the ending of the war at the time he surrendered with 2 the wonderful reconstruction you mentioned that followed, especially when viewed by the terroristic actions of Sherman's march to the sea.

d

 

[KidUPS]

Re: what would you do

I would absolutely be offended by it even if it was not directed at me. And I would report it. That kind of behavior was accepted, even encouraged 50 years ago. Even 20 years ago. But in this day and age it is not acceptable.

Answer me this City, if it was a middle easterener (let's say arab and you can fill in any number of scenarios) that had made a negative comment to someone and you overheard it, would you not report that as well? I bet you would.

This country has gotten super sensitive to racial slurs, and justly so. There are 2 words that I hate more than any other. 1 is the 'c' word (my ex was very liberal with this one) and the other is the 'n' word (used to refer to black people). You want to cause a fight then all it takes is one of those to start it.

If it was a management employee would you report it?

 

[bellesotico]

Re: what would you do

Belle

Tell me something, did the KKK not terrorize a lot of white folks?

Absolutely. When did I say they didnt?

Do you know what the ratio of "African American" to other racial groups were when it comes to deaths caused by the KKK?

I believe it was 3:1. Although this number has been debated by many. SPLC would probably state a higher number.

And tell me, was reconstruction a good thing for the south?

It depends on who you ask. The KKK would say yes. I say no. But reconstruction was part of the deal and it was a disaster.

And one last question, what was Robert E Lee's view of 1, the ending of the war at the time he surrendered with 2 the wonderful reconstruction you mentioned that followed, especially when viewed by the terroristic actions of Sherman's march to the sea.

Lee was never on board with slavery and not a fan of succession. He did not believe in using war as a remedy to political conflict.

Wonderful reconstruction??? I don't think so.
I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at here...
My comments to you were in addition..I was not disagreeing with you. But..whatever.


d

 

[dilligaf]

Re: what would you do

If it was a management employee would you report it?

Damm straight I would.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: what would you do

My point was this. Lee was lied to when he surrendered. He later on remarked that had he known of the horrific atrocities that were to be committed against his fellow Americans at the hand of Sherman, he would have insisted on fighting to the last man.

The actual beginnings of the movement that became the KKK is also very interesting to study. Politics at its best.

I am not intimating you were disagreeing, but since you brought up the subject of the Socratic method of study.....

Anyway, I would enjoy deeper discussions with you on the subject.

Best

d

 

[trplnkl]

Re: what would you do

Tpl



I have a conundrum with that statement.

What would you do if the guy wearing the shirt with the flag was black....?

Not joking, have seen two of them over the last couple of years.

d

The same thing I would do if it were ....fill in the blank... I would do nothing. The reason for my mentioning it is that not everyone that wears that type of symbol is automatically a racist.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: what would you do

is that not everyone that wears that type of symbol is automatically a racist

Thankyou for making that point!

I agree 100%

Best

d

 

[trplnkl]

Re: what would you do

pheeeeewww...for a few minutes there I thought we were gonna get off topic on this thread....LMAO

 

[dilligaf]

Re: what would you do

The same thing I would do if it were ....fill in the blank... I would do nothing. The reason for my mentioning it is that not everyone that wears that type of symbol is automatically a racist.

LOL kinda the same point I was making.

 

[bellesotico]

Re: what would you do

My point was this. Lee was lied to when he surrendered. He later on remarked that had he known of the horrific atrocities that were to be committed against his fellow Americans at the hand of Sherman, he would have insisted on fighting to the last man.

The actual beginnings of the movement that became the KKK is also very interesting to study. Politics at its best.

I am not intimating you were disagreeing, but since you brought up the subject of the Socratic method of study.....

Anyway, I would enjoy deeper discussions with you on the subject.

Best

d

Ok, I understand now. It's not always easy to find the angle in posts as there is no intonation. I brought up the Socratic method to place emphasis on the level of my study. I guess I missed that you were employing this in your questions because it seemed you were seeking definitive answers as opposed to those whose purpose is to encourage deeper thought on the subject. I'm sorry I misunderstood your intent.

I would enjoy further conversation as well. =)

Belle

 

[Solidarity413]

Re: what would you do

Three demerits for both of y'all for assuming everyone that owns a cap with the Stars & Bars is a toothless racist. Geeez that's almost as bad as what the Bubba said to City's friend.

I'm jumping in this thread late, mainly because I'd get heated in here so I'm staying away. But this remark has always puzzled me. How am I not to assume someone with the rebel flag is anything but a racist? This is a serious question so flame if you want but please make an attempt at a answer. I've always been curious.

 

[dannyboy]

Re: what would you do

The flag to many represents the independence and self determination that was the point of the whole mess we call the Civil war. Most nowadays think of it as the war to free the slaves, but it was far from that. It was not until late in the war that the thought even became popular. There were many slave owners in the north that had to be forced to free their slaves.

And many "slaves" in the north were not from Africa, but instead were white. These served on with their servitude long after the slaves were released.

The idea of preserving the union at all costs is what prompted Lincoln to do many things as President that many people to this day do not have a clue.

I find it very interesting to note that when discussing slavery, no one wants to talk about who actually enslaved the people to begin with, so that the white man could ship them to the rest of the world. They were not racist, they were enslaving people of their own race, for money. Or power.

But I digress.

The Stars and Bars existed in various forms before the war, and had nothing to do with race. But as impossible as it is to unring a bell, so it is impossible to undo what you have learned.

One last item that you might also not think about.

After the Army of Northern Aggression raped, burned, and plundered its way through the south, it became a badge of pride for those in the south to flaunt their flag as a sign of silent rebellion to the victors of the "war", and as such it is still used to this day. Youthful rebellion against authority.

d

 

[dilligaf]

Re: what would you do

Very interesting reading, thanks Danny.

 

[pickup]

Re: what would you do

The flag to many represents the independence and self determination that was the point of the whole mess we call the Civil war. Most nowadays think of it as the war to free the slaves, but it was far from that. It was not until late in the war that the thought even became popular. There were many slave owners in the north that had to be forced to free their slaves.

And many "slaves" in the north were not from Africa, but instead were white. These served on with their servitude long after the slaves were released.

The idea of preserving the union at all costs is what prompted Lincoln to do many things as President that many people to this day do not have a clue.

I find it very interesting to note that when discussing slavery, no one wants to talk about who actually enslaved the people to begin with, so that the white man could ship them to the rest of the world. They were not racist, they were enslaving people of their own race, for money. Or power.

But I digress.

The Stars and Bars existed in various forms before the war, and had nothing to do with race. But as impossible as it is to unring a bell, so it is impossible to undo what you have learned.

One last item that you might also not think about.

After the Army of Northern Aggression raped, burned, and plundered its way through the south, it became a badge of pride for those in the south to flaunt their flag as a sign of silent rebellion to the victors of the "war", and as such it is still used to this day. Youthful rebellion against authority.

d

Remember while the colonies won the war against england , they were still individuals entities. When the united states was officially formed a few years later, the constitution gave the federal government explicit powers and any other powers were reserved for the states. Of course we know what happened. For example jefferson bought "the louisiana purchase" from Napolean even though there was no authorization for the federal government to do so. Jefferson was an advocate of state's rights and he must have ideologically struggled with this but it was too good of a deal to pass.

The noose slowly tightened as the federal government assumed more power
and the southern states wanted out so that they could continue their cherised ways which included slavery. They tried to get out of the union but obviously it didn't work out the way they wanted

In my opinion, once the south was defeated, the federal government just got more and more powerful. Look at what we have today, the federal government dictating mandates to states and if they don't comply, they don't get federal money(seat belt laws for example):money that the state paid to the federal government . What was once a mechanism (a servant) to protect the interests of the states became they're master.

Remember the case of Terry Schiavo (the comatose woman in florida) it was a state issue and people appealed to the feds and george bush replied my hands are tied. As a result, many people were begging to have the federal government supercede the states in this and similar issues. I don't know what the status of such cases is now but I wouldn't be suprised if the feds have more control over stuff like this.

Obviously simplistic posting, I gotta get out for work soon but you get my drift.

By the way, I am not condoning slavery, but there were other issues at work as well,. Obviously slavery was a core part of some of these issues.

 

[bellesotico]

Re: what would you do

Well stated Danny.
It is interesting how many people believe the Civil War was fought to free the slaves. The Civil War was the result of a heated debate over states rights. Think John C. Calhoun, the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions (1798) with regard to state interposition, and the issue of nullification. In a nutshell, there were serious arguments that the federal government should not be allowed to execute law within the state. The issue of slavery was economical. The South's economy relied heavily on slavery, and the belief was that it's dissolution would cause tyranny.