Discussion in 'Current Events' started by big_arrow_up, Nov 11, 2007.
Will it ever end?
I know that it's a small minority of idiots that keep screaming about Christmas and religious celebrations and such........why are they heard so well ?
The silent majority needs to make their point too.
The year that Walmart decided "Happy Holidays" was the generic greeting they would use, I said "Merry Christmas" to every clerk I encountered. It was changed back to Merry Christmas the very next year. I know it wasn't my actions that changed it, but I like to think I had a small part in it.
I was choosing a small sign the other day.....a Christmasy sign on a stake that you poke into the ground. Some said Happy Holidays and the others said Merry Christmas. I chose the Merry Christmas one. If they sell out of one kind and get stuck with the more generic greeting, maybe that sends a message too.
When they start swaddling my baby Jesus's head......all hell will break loose here. (did I say that out loud?)
When they succeed?
I don't celebrate Christmas or for that fact any other religious holiday so I don't care one way or the other. However, I am opposed to any entity, especially gov't or people in groups attempting to use gov't for coercive means, telling someone else whether they can or can't celebrate in a non-violent, non-forceful religious celebration.
We never celebrated Christmas and my kids from day one have known of the commercialism and the Coca-Cola Santa Klaus creation but we've never done anything to "spoil the fun" for others. They aren't harming me so I have no right to interfer. It's become a kinda inside family joke that when others learn of what we believe or I should say don't practice the first question is, "are you jewish?" and we just always say yes if that makes it easier for them to understand. No offense to those of you of the jewish faith either. I can relate at times what you must go through during the holiday season.
That said however, these folks looking to destroy societal religious customs at every turn should get over it and move on in life.
The first amendment goes both ways IMO that is protects from religion as much as it protects the individula's practice thereof when it comes to religion.
And let me say this to you Big, just because a group of men who manipulated the political scene of the day and were able to displace local pagan customs and in effect Christianize them doesn't make it dogmatic with biblical edict or law. Christmas is as much a creation of man's fancy as it is the fancy of some men today to eliminate it from all practice.
Love the Lord God with all thy heart and Love thy neighbor as thyself are eternal precepts but Christmas IMO by no means even comes close to that same level of standing. My guess is that if we all followed that eternal precept, this concern over Christmas would be nowhere to be found as would a lot of the ills we face in our day. Maybe instead of worrying so much about someone taking away our Santa Klaus we should be worried about how far we all fall short of living up to those words of Jesus. I wonder which one Jesus would feel to be most important? From what I read of the Bible, I think I know that answer and in your heart so do you.
I'll stand with you to defend your right to observe a Christianized Pagan practice but let's keep our eye on the ball in this game of life.
They are free to decorate their apartments, including their exterior doors, anyway they like. They are just saying to not put it in common areas. That is a far cry from an outright ban.
There is a real simple fix for this. They don't like it? Move.
About the same time they ban the pledge from schools
I find it of interest that so-called conservatives of our day who wail and gnash of teeth at all things liberal and socialist will extoll the virutes of the "Pledge of Allegiance" and want to assert it's daily saying in our public classrooms. I often wonder if those same people just for one moment ever considered it's history and who the person that wrote it and what they believed in the way of politics. Do they even understand that it's presence is a 20th century creation and in no way connected to the actions of the founding fathers and in fact, it's probable they would oppose such ideas in the first place?
I doubt it because if they will continue the Christianized paganism known as Christmas, why not promote the ideals of a 1920's Christian socialist in demanding the reciting daily of his Pledge of Allegiance.
I've always found it interesting that our founding fathers never found it necessary to fabricate and put into place mandated public displays of a citizens loyality or allegience. It's also of interest that historically these types of things are generally only found among dispotic, autocratic or tyrannical forms of gov't as a means of a type of collective mind control in order to maintain the focus of the population on the superior position of the State and the inferior position of the individual. Oh that's right, the founding fathers believed in the opposite approach!
Oh by the way, the proper salute during the pledge is for the arm to be fully extended with palm upright. You know, like the Nazi salute just with the palm turned up. It was changed after WW2 because of Hilter but if you want to be the purist!
The pledge, as originally written, did not contain the phrase "under god". That was added in 1954.
And the "Bellamy salute" is pretty funny. Sieg Heil!
Damn you Jones here I go pokin' em with a stick and you want to make it all easy for them!
Also, the salute started out with hand over heart as you said, "I pledge allegiance" and then as you said "to the flag of the United States" that's when you extended the arm with palm up as though to elevate the flag itself. It's also said that Bellamy believes the citizen should hold undying loyality to the State but I wonder what some of these folks would say if they learned the whole idea really launched when a company selling flags to schools used Bellamy's pledge as a marketing idea. We got the tradition of the pledge as a means of making money. Now that should make the neo-cons proud! BTW outside of the military flag marked by the fringe on the borders, the other use of the flag is to mark under what jurisdiction something finds itself. It's principle use was on the high seas to mark the jurisdiction of a ship. That said, it is also common place for the flag to display in a court setting to also designate jurisdiction. If you ever enter a courtroom chamber, why is the military fringed flag on display in a judical branch venue? I guess cause it's prettier!
Also the "In God We Trust" came about via the NYC Knight's of Columbus who wanted a more religious aspect to the pledge and use the influence of Abe Lincoln's Gettysberg address to push that effort. Bellamy wanted the words fraternity and equality in the pledge but dropped that idea as in light of the issue of segregation and women's rights at the time, those words were felt to insight problems even though Bellamy held true to these socialist causes at that time in our history.
Bellamy's Socialist Christianity has seen many manifestations but in modern term it has displayed itself in what is known as Liberation theology most well known during the latter years of the cold war and Marxist movements in Central America to outst pro-American autocratic regimes. It's funny if Bellamy were alive today he'd be an avowed liberal if not downright socialist who would be out protesting the war, protesting the capitalistic economic system some here hold dear as well as the expanding empirical policies that is now the mainstay of our US foreign policy.
What will they extoll next, Marx's 10 planks of the Manifesto?
Opps, to late, those are already embedded in the party policy of the Red, White and Blue and have been for many decades! Marx and Engles would be so proud of the 21st century republican party and it's forward thinking for the comrades of the past. Besides, your de facto leader in Irving Krystol is a modified Trotskite himself so the historical connections are there is you'll only look deeper instead of tripping up over tripe about some alleged threat to you Santa Klaus!
Boy, I'm being a real nasty son of a 8itch today!
At least I'm not over there bored to tears going in circles about the contract.
Man, I'm in a nasty mood today!
A Month Before Christmas
Twas a month beforeChristmas
When all through our land,
Not a Christian was praying
Nor taking a stand.
See the PC Police had taken away,
The reason for Christmas - no one could say.
The children were told by their schools not to sing,
About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.
It might hurt people's feelings, the teachers would say
December 25th is just a " Holiday ".
Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit
Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!
CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-pod
Something was changing, something quite odd!
Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.
As Targets were hanging their trees upside down
At Lowe's the word Christmas - was no where to be found.
At K-Mart and Staples and Penny's and Sears
You won't hear the word Christmas; it won't touch your ears.
Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.
Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen
On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton !
At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter
To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.
And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith
Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace.
The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded
The reason for the season, stopped before it started.
So as you celebrate "Winter Break" under your "Dream Tree"
Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.
Choose your words carefully, choose what you say
Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS, not Happy Holiday!!!!!
Ah, defender of the faith to the biter end! I do admire your loyality however. You might rub off on Pat Robertson as he sure needs it!
The last time I checked, December 25th was a legal holiday and the name of that legal holiday was Christmas.
But I can no longer celebrate Christmas so I guess my family will soon be decorating the Holiday tree. Christmas Day has become a Holiday With No Name and if I say Merry Christmas I will be insulting vast hordes of people. School Christmas pagents are being done away with because we can't have 1% of those children feel left out or insulted. That certainly isn't what life in the real world is all about.
Soon, Thanksgiving will become politically incorrect because each person in this country may not want to give thanks, as will Memorial Day because I'm sure there are those who see no reason to honor a fallen warrier. Good bye Labor Day too, since people can be found who have no reason to celebrate what unions represent.
The Pledge of Allegiance is already under attack because every child does not want to honor this country. Next, football, basketball, track teams, drama and chess clubs, marching bands and choirs will also be disbanded because not all children want to participate.
All this despite the fact that the majority of the people in this country are Christians and whether it's popular or not, celebrate Christmas...
I never realized it was that bad regarding Christmas.
I mean already starting now and accelarating to light speed next week are these hordes and hordes of people going to the shopping malls to buy stuff. When you ask what that is all about, they say they are Christmas shopping.
On all the houses in the hood, I see decorations starting to either go up or preparations to do so. When I ask what this is all about they all say Christmas. In the local town square they are hanging lights and notices are up inviting all to the Christmas parade and the lighting of the Christmas lights.
In shopping center parking lots are these areas springing up with bunches of evergreen trees and over them a sign sez, "Get You Christmas Trees Here!"
In the stores, you ask the clerks "how's it going?" and they all respond, "oh it's so busy getting ready for Christmas!"
I guess I live in a bubble where Christmas is alive and well and seems to be thriving and growing and you must live outside that bubble. Although I did some good LSD back in the 70's so maybe this is a very long overdue flashback and nothing but an illusion!
Are you really going to let a few meaningless acts of idiots spoil your beliefs? Are you that shakey in what you believe in that everyone must conform to your world or else? If so, you need to sitdown and take another look at what you truly believe instead of getting so upset over what others who have no life decide to do. Our governor had a day of prayer on the capitol steps today for rain and some idiot who calls himself a freethinker got face time on TV and protested the pray vigil all because he didn't believe in God. Now I'm not so sure God works in some ways such as bringing rain when we happen to ask but I'm also not willing to prevent others who do from trying because it just may work. I'm all for an Indian raindance if some Indians are so inclined at this point. The point is, let others do what they want and believe as such and you continue to do the same. If it's of good heart and of moral value, I contend in the end it will win the day regardless of the foolish actions of others.
Aw jeez guys, cry me a river
I don't know what part of the country you live in but around here the X-mas decorations are already everywhere and it's not even thanksgiving yet. It's a big money maker for retail so don't worry, it's not going anywhere. Capitalism to the rescue .
And I'm with mac (I think) on the pledge. I never liked the idea of teaching kids blind loyalty to a country or flag, it's a bit too fascist for me. How about instead teaching them the importance of certain principles, like individual liberty, freedom of the press, right to privacy, etc. ? Then they will (hopefully) grow to love and respect the country that best represents those principles. Just a thought.
Cripes, cross posted with mac....carry on....
I love life outside the bubble Wkmac, where I can over react, become a little too sarcastic and question the news that hits the press. Like when Nativity scenes are banned from government property. When the city of Boston put up a tree a couple of years back in a city park and dubbed it a "Holiday Tree". When school boards nation wide ban carols such as Silent Night from holiday assemblies. When politically correct greetings from Macy's, Target, Nordstroms, KMart, etc. replace "Merry Christmas".
Or when I hear about some kid being warned or suspended from school for high fiving, shaking hands or hugging someone because forms of physical contact are being banned in our schools. This includes tag, dodgeball and games so violent that somebody might get hurt. Yet which never maimed or killed anybody when we were growing up. What the heck are we teaching our kids about competition and that the real world consists of winners and losers!
Rock, paper, scissors might encourage our youth to go out and steal weapons.
Children's books and nursery rhymes will probably be next. They, too, are evil...
There was an old woman who lived in a shoe
she had so many children
she didn't know what to do
she gave them some broth
without any bread,
she whipped them all soundly
and put them to bed.
Somebody call social services!!!
A ban is a ban. It doesn't matter wether it's partal or outright. And you are right.....if they don't like it then they should move.....anyone that is trying to ban X-mas decorations that is. I'd say go to the Soviet Union where erasing religion from society is common practice (will be here too soon at the rate we are going) but that country doesn't seem to be around any more. I'm starting the think the ghost of that country has haunted our country.
I'll take capitlism over anything else anyday. Even if someone does make money off holidays and flags. At least we have the holidays (for now anyway) and the the opporunity to profit from them. I couldn't imagine living in a country where both are forbidden. Since when is being taught the pledge and loyalty to our flag considered "teaching blind loyalty"??? What are parents and teachers supposed to do? Leave our kids alone to draw their own conclusions from video games, hip hop music, and tv? Hmmm....there's one to think about.
What a sad life you must live. Somebody, somewhere is always pissing in your Fruit Loops.
You probably should read that article again. Noone is banning x-mas or x-mas decorations. The ban is on overtly religious displays in the common area of a HUD facility, which is entirely appropriate. The same people making a fuss about this would be screaming bloody murder if a muslim resident wanted to put up any religious displays in that same common area during Ramadan.
I generally agree with you here, but it sounds like you think you are arguing with me.
Read the pledge. It really doesn't teach anything else. It's not a pledge of allegiance to a set of principles, or a moral code, or anything like that. It's a pledge of loyalty to a flag and a country, that's all. *edit* Well, it does reference "liberty and justice for all", which is good. Now that I think about it I might be open to a pledge that did focus more on principles and not so much on flag and country. It would be a good starting point for a class on civic duty.
I addressed this in my previous post:
To put in another way, teachers should teach whatever subject matter they are supposed to teach (math, english, history, all that stuff). Parents should teach what they (hopefully)always have, right from wrong, don't hit , share your toys, always say "please", "thank you", and "you're welcome". You know, basic morality and the foundations of good citizenship.
If our nation is worthy of loyalty and respect (and I think it is), then loyalty and respect is what it will get. We don't need to indoctrinate our kids to ensure that.
So after all these years it's suddenly a crime to celebrate Christmas? Hmm....I'd say "PAST PRACTICE" comes to mind here. And believe me.....they maybe be saying, "ANY religious symbols or religious words associated with Christmas," but we all know that Christmas is the main focus on the ban. And isn't it funny that the HUD representative said that if the residents hold a Christmas party there they direct them to not call it a Christmas Party but to call it a "Holiday" Party instead??? Hmm....I could have sworn the word Holiday comes from combining "HOLY" and "day."
Doesn't teach allegiance to a set of principles or moral code huh? LOL! If you read the pledge more closely you'll notice the part that says "under God." I have no problem admitting that I'm not that smartest man on the board but I do know that if someone is living "under God" then they most likely follow the teachings of the bible that represents their particular faith. And since this majority of the country are Christians I could use the Holy Bible as the example. Now if that isn't a perfect example of teachings of moral codes and principles then I don't know what is. Here is a little guide I found to help understand the meaning of the Pledge.
"I pledge allegiance"
(I promise to be true)
"to the flag"
(to the symbol of our country)
"of the United States of America"
(each state that has joined to make our country)
"and to the Republic"
(a republic is a country where the people choose others to make laws for them -- the government is for the people)
"for which it stands,"
(the flag means the country)
(a single country)
(the people believe in a supreme being)
(the country cannot be split into parts)
"with liberty and justice"
(with freedom and fairness)
(for each person in the country...you and me!)
The pledge says you are promising to be true to the United States of America!
I agree but the problem is that many of the teachers aren't doing this. There are too many cases of biassed and false teachings of our own history. One example that sticks out in my mind is the teaching of the Civil War. And the schools are turning kids into panzies these days. I mean come on....."Sensitivity Classes" for bullies and their victoms??? LOL!
Separate names with a comma.