class action lawsuit against UPS

[tieguy]

And I say that's BS. Anyone woo's worked for THIS company as a driver for any length of time has experienced enough uncompensated grief that any windfall component of this payment is just a down payment on what's due.

Interesting argument. I guess the guy who breaks into your house and steals you blind could also use the same logic. After all he was abused as a child and has had a hard life so he's entitled to whatever he can steal from your house as just compensation for his hard life.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is where people hold theirselves responsible and where their personal integrity kicks in. If they know they did not skip any lunchs and were not therefore affected then they should opt out of the lawsuit.

Iconoclast - Again, You can't file a class action lawsuit unless there has been widespread malfeasance-read that as most of the thousands that are grouped in having been potentially affected by this issue, not 4-5 people have been affected and the rest are riding for free. UPS would not settle a case of that magnitude-it would be too easy for them to prove that the problem is not widespread.

Iconoclast -If the law requires, as it currently does, that you are not required to present evidence attesting to how you were harmed, why begrudge those who benefit from the law.

The principles of personal integrity should always be a step above the law of the land.

Iconoclast -If you get a traffic ticket and the day you go to court you find that the cop was on the take, and they are going to throw out all the tickets he wrote in the period that they can prove the cop was dirty- are you going to take it upon yourself to make sure that you are prosecuted for your infraction? -No, you are going to walk.

poor example.

Iconoclast -Why? You just stated that, "The principles of personal integrity should always be a step above the law of the land." If you are going to make a statement like that you should expect that it will stand up to other situations that have similar demands, not just the argument you are trying to support.

 

[Iconoclast]

The grievance process was put into place by the teamsters and by UPS to allow you the means to address any issues where you feel you were not treated fairly or where UPS did not follow the contract. You could clearly argue that UPS provided you with the means to hold them accountable. In this case my point has been that many drivers never had lunch issues or if they did they did not use the grievance process first.

How do you know that? You are continually hingeing an argument on this point. You can probably safely assume that many drivers had lunch issues or the lawsuit would not hold up-you can also surmise that UPS would not settle a case where they could prove that this was not a widespread issue.

The other question still stands - How on god's green earth you can make a definitive statement about how many used the grievance process, and what resolution they received, is beyond my pale.


Thats one part of this issue the other is 4 or 5 drivers who apparently had issues with the lunch issue filed a class action and were allowed to draw in the 4 or 5 thousand drivers who work in the state of california. Those additional drivers never actually had to enroll and they never had to prove they too were harmed by UPS.

Yes. Again, one million times again-when you have an issue that is this widespread the court doesn't want to hear every case so they allow a CLASS ACTION so a problem as monumentally broad as this lunch issue will penalize a company like UPS. If it were as simple as just proving that most drivers did not have their lunch tampered with - THAT IS WHAT UPS WOULD DO!! THEY WOULD PROVE THAT AND NOT SETTLE. that is the entire reason they pay legal retainers.

As far as enrolling, why?? beneficiaries can receive awards without having to substantiate each individual infraction. It seems unfair to UPS until you realize how many millions of dollars they have cost drivers over the years by stealing time from them-how do we know that-

ONE SIMPLE FACT TIE - UPS SETTLES, PERIOD.

 

[tieguy]

This is where people hold theirselves responsible and where their personal integrity kicks in. If they know they did not skip any lunchs and were not therefore affected then they should opt out of the lawsuit.

Iconoclast - Again, You can't file a class action lawsuit unless there has been widespread malfeasance-read that as most of the thousands that are grouped in having been potentially affected by this issue, not 4-5 people have been affected and the rest are riding for free.

Sigh......Have you read anything I have said or do you automatically hit the reply button before digesting what I have said. In fact a small group of people started this lawsuit. They then enjoined thousands of UPS drivers who never had to personally join the lawsuit and never had to prove the widespread malfeasance you claim. Thats my point all along in this debaucle of a case.

 

[tieguy]

How do you know that? You are continually hingeing an argument on this point. You can probably safely assume that many drivers had lunch issues or the lawsuit would not hold up-you can also surmise that UPS would not settle a case where they could prove that this was not a widespread issue.

My challenge to other drivers here stands and you can feel free to prove me wrong if you think you can. If a driver collects a three thousand dollar check for the lunch issue then were they denied three thousand lunchs and did they file grievances to collect on all three thousand lunchs with no avail before seeking restitution in the court system. If the answer is no and so far it is then those drivers do not deserve that check. Its an interesting debate. I appreciate the fact you have never managed an operation and don't understand these issues but at the same time you discredit your argument when you try to deny something you don't understand.

Yes. Again, one million times again-when you have an issue that is this widespread the court doesn't want to hear every case so they allow a CLASS ACTION so a problem as monumentally broad as this lunch issue will penalize a company like UPS. If it were as simple as just proving that most drivers did not have their lunch tampered with - THAT IS WHAT UPS WOULD DO!! THEY WOULD PROVE THAT AND NOT SETTLE. that is the entire reason they pay legal retainers.

My , my large font very impressive. Are we screaming now because you really don't understand these issues? Are we feeling a little frustrated? In fact UPS could end up settling because our sups have not done a good job of applying the correct lunch rules. It could also be because our management folks did not do a good job of documenting exceptions. The reasons could be endless and our debate would also be endless. Thats why I have taken this argument to a simpler level that I though you might appreciate. Why UPS settled we will never know. Therefore arguing about it is a waste of time. So keep it simple.

1) A driver recieves a check for three thousand dollars.

2) Did he miss three thousand meals?

3) Did he grieve the loss of those three thousand meals?

4) Did he lose all three thousand grievances?

5) If the answer is no to questions 2, 3 and 4 then the driver has an ethical responsibility to opt out of this lawsuit that he was forced into.

As far as enrolling, why?? beneficiaries can receive awards without having to substantiate each individual infraction.

Can they without proving they are harmed. Is that the right answer. What happens when a group of gay drivers in california file a class action lawsuit for discrimination. Will we then assume all 5000 drivers in california are gay? How far do we want to take this madness of captive class actions if we really want to have a fair judicial system.

It seems unfair to UPS until you realize how many millions of dollars they have cost drivers over the years by stealing time from them-how do we know that-

Interesting argument from someone claiming to be management. May I suggest you do some inner soul searching if you really feel this way. I'm not sure I want you out in front of the customers if you feel this way?

 

[brownmonster]

Tie, if they only get 3000 dollars for missing 3000 lunches then UPS is coming out smelling like a rose. A buck an hour?

 

[sendagain]

I worked at UPS for nearly 28 years and never filed a grievance; those that did seemed to be chronic malcontents and often complained about everything. I did notice that management personnel that grumbled and made waves were escorted to the nearest crap pile, there to work out their careers in despair.

 

[gandydancer]

Interesting argument. I guess the guy who breaks into your house and steals you blind could also use the same logic. After all he was abused as a child and has had a hard life so he's entitled to whatever he can steal from your house as just compensation for his hard life.

Nobody is stealing from UPS. UPS is guilty of violating the law and is being fined. I don't see any provision for punitive damages in the law, so the fact that UPS is offering to settle probably means that they are offering to settle for a fraction of the fines they owe. Which in turn means that the drivers will on average get only a fraction of what is due them by law for UPS' malfeasance.

UPS does its damndest to exploit its employees, and to some extent it succeeds. Even if some of them find that on some small portion of the injury done to them they can legally compel the company to do more than make them whole, that doesn't mean they're ahead overall. There's no analogy between that and stealing from a stranger who's done them no harm.

 

[dave_socal]

Two forms or types of Class action suits opt "in" or opt "out" . I belive this Lawsuit was an opt "out". As a member of this specific "CLASS" which brought this "ACTION" against UPS, I was offered money or a chance to opt out of this suit. I do not have the responsibility of proving anything, by simply being a member of this class I was asked if I would like X amount of $$ for working from this time period to this time period with the company. Tieguy is confused at the legal system. If it were an opt "in" suit we would have to participate more in research of our records and take a more active role in our claim. Most drivers don't want to gain something to the detriment of this company but when a pool of money has been settled on and your are solicited by these lawyers with documents given by UPS stating "did you work from this date to this date and would you sign here and get your check"? What would most hard working family men/women do?.... Stand on some notion of principle(being that we never filed grievences right) or think back over the years of hard work and reason this is an unexpected windfall but I will accept it gratefully. I chose the latter. Those drivers that began this suit had no idea this that this would snowball into a class action suit but that's not thier fault nor mine blame our judical system.

 

[tieguy]

Tie, if they only get 3000 dollars for missing 3000 lunches then UPS is coming out smelling like a rose. A buck an hour?

oops. half asleep when I wrote that one.

 

[tieguy]

Nobody is stealing from UPS. UPS is guilty of violating the law and is being fined. I don't see any provision for punitive damages in the law, so the fact that UPS is offering to settle probably means that they are offering to settle for a fraction of the fines they owe. Which in turn means that the drivers will on average get only a fraction of what is due them by law for UPS' malfeasance.

UPS does its damndest to exploit its employees, and to some extent it succeeds. Even if some of them find that on some small portion of the injury done to them they can legally compel the company to do more than make them whole, that doesn't mean they're ahead overall. There's no analogy between that and stealing from a stranger who's done them no harm.

Okay . Again each person has to make a personal decision as to whether they were personally affected. Did UPS "steal" from you and if so how much. Are you now trying to justify money you did not earn by accusing UPS of stealing from someone else? Its an interesting argument because so far no one here can justify the money they took other then to try to accuse UPS of being unethical. I don't know how your ethics are but in my world accusing someone else of being dishonest does not justify me being dishonest.

 

[tieguy]

Two forms or types of Class action suits opt "in" or opt "out" . I belive this Lawsuit was an opt "out". As a member of this specific "CLASS" which brought this "ACTION" against UPS, I was offered money or a chance to opt out of this suit. I do not have the responsibility of proving anything, by simply being a member of this class I was asked if I would like X amount of $$ for working from this time period to this time period with the company. Tieguy is confused at the legal system. If it were an opt "in" suit we would have to participate more in research of our records and take a more active role in our claim.

Dave if you read back you'll find I'm not confused. This is the exact point I have been making all along as to why I think the class action system in california is screeewed up.

Most drivers don't want to gain something to the detriment of this company but when a pool of money has been settled on and your are solicited by these lawyers with documents given by UPS stating "did you work from this date to this date and would you sign here and get your check"? What would most hard working family men/women do?....

Agreed my point exactly. Comes down to your personal ethics and integrity as to whether you feel you were harmed.

Stand on some notion of principle(being that we never filed grievences right) or think back over the years of hard work and reason this is an unexpected windfall but I will accept it gratefully. I chose the latter. Those drivers that began this suit had no idea this that this would snowball into a class action suit but that's not thier fault nor mine blame our judical system.

And thats part of the discussion here , trying to figure out how those who were not hurt on the lunch issue justified taking this money.

 

[raceanoncr]

You know, I've read this for quite some time and see both sides, but on this issue, for once, I have to slide over to Tie's camp. Why?

I've been involved with a couple class actions before, involving products. I was always sent a form, questionaire, something to prove how I was harmed, defrauded, scammed. I have to come up with the proof that I deserved a part of the class $. You know what? The anal person that I am (keeping records and reciepts of everything I do, including a step by step account of all my feeder runs, be it sleeper or brown) has netted me some bucks. BUT! I wouldn't have been able to collect in these cases if I couldn't PROVE I was wronged!

Granted, the company was wrong and has admitted so, but all Tie is saying is,"Can I prove that I was wronged?", that's all. If you all want to take the $ without having to prove you were wronged, I DON'T CARE! Live with it and move on!!!

 

[dave_socal]

Agreed my point exactly. Comes down to your personal ethics and integrity as to whether you feel you were harmed.

And thats part of the discussion here , trying to figure out how those who were not hurt on the lunch issue justified taking this money. [/quote]

Yes its comes down to a personal choice, but Tieguy you are trying to frame this as a reflection character and ethics, integrity. It seems to me you and anyone who objects to this pay out have a very pious and smug attitude toward those of us who have had to actually make this (un)ethical desicion. It's very easy to assume and preach what you might do. I balk at any assertion that you might convey that we are somehow doing an injustice to this company. No one I've spoken to has said I don't want this money regardless of circumstance, does this make us all less principled than you? I can most assuredly state that 99% of everyone around you management or not would accept this without a blink of an eye. You should leave the pondering to those who have the decision before them without you aspersions about our intergrity. Its funny how over the years of seeing UPS do right and wrong to me and others, I never took it personaly because ultimately I knew what UPS is, an emotionless corporation that will proceed with or without me. This money is not going to change anybodys life or job so why even bother yourself with a non dilemma. I'm a substantial stockholder of this company, I want nothing more than to see UPS profit from my work so I too can gain. If you would like a list of grievence's I've never filed lets start a new thread, but I don't feel the need to justify any futher why accepting this offer is no big deal. I would like most management to justify their worth it obivious that ones with the least callused hands are troubled most.

 

[tieguy]

Yes its comes down to a personal choice, but Tieguy you are trying to frame this as a reflection character and ethics, integrity. It seems to me you and anyone who objects to this pay out have a very pious and smug attitude toward those of us who have had to actually make this (un)ethical desicion.

No I think its actually a terrific issue to discuss and debate.
Pious and smug are not my intent. Many posters here have sneered and mocked management and beat them silly over the ethics and integrity issues. So here we have one in california where upsers are collecting checks when they may not have been harmed due to some serious flaws with the california class action system. So my thoughts are did you get a check, were you personally harmed, if not how do you justify taking the check and being able to live with your own personal ethics belief system.

It's very easy to assume and preach what you might do. I balk at any assertion that you might convey that we are somehow doing an injustice to this company. No one I've spoken to has said I don't want this money regardless of circumstance, does this make us all less principled than you? I can most assuredly state that 99% of everyone around you management or not would accept this without a blink of an eye. You should leave the pondering to those who have the decision before them without you aspersions about our intergrity. Its funny how over the years of seeing UPS do right and wrong to me and others, I never took it personaly because ultimately I knew what UPS is, an emotionless corporation that will proceed with or without me. This money is not going to change anybodys life or job so why even bother yourself with a non dilemma.

I'm really not bothering myself dave. You keep acting like I am obsessed with the subject in fact I find it a great subject to discuss. Nothing more.

I'm a substantial stockholder of this company, I want nothing more than to see UPS profit from my work so I too can gain. If you would like a list of grievence's I've never filed lets start a new thread, but I don't feel the need to justify any futher why accepting this offer is no big deal. I would like most management to justify their worth it obivious that ones with the least callused hands are troubled most.

Ok. Good upsers , stock holder, no grievances who took the money because everyone else would too. I don;t disagree with that point.

Now let me refocus. A major part of my argument on this thread has been the class action process is screeewed up. I think the ethics integrity issue here not only is how you personally view recieving this money but whether you feel the court process that made the money available is ethical. Whether you feel that a court system that is so strongly anti business as this one is not ultimately harming your state in loss of business, loss of jobs and higher taxes higher prices on goods. Hmmm never mind thats already happening. So I think you ought to revisit your point that this lawsuit and you taking the money is not hurting anything. Eventually I think you'll pay much more for that check then what it was worth.

 

[dave_socal]

Once again Tieguy it is shockingly obivious how little you seem to grasp of what real work is and like I said over the years of service to this company this small token amount of money is not going to change anyones life so you keep on supervising or whatever it is you do to not "harm" the company meanwhile us grunts will take what has been offered thank you very much This lawsuit is about lunch periods not taken a concept people in management can't seem to understand being that they(you) never missed a break, meal or have had to urinate in a bottle because of service time constraints so don't tell me about "harm". You can continue to discuss ad nauseam "harm" or a legal system run amok but its a vacant analysis from your(managments) prespective. What's your prespective? You know inside airconditioned buildings with food and restrooms readily avalible and plenty of other tieguys running around trying to look busy between the time the drivers leave till they return. So post away (Yawn) I'm done reading opinions with little standing or as the saying goes "you don't have a horse in this race".

 

[tieguy]

Once again Tieguy it is shockingly obivious how little you seem to grasp of what real work is and like I said over the years of service to this company this small token amount of money is not going to change anyones life so you keep on supervising or whatever it is you do to not "harm" the company meanwhile us grunts will take what has been offered thank you very much

You know Dave if you really feel feel comfortable taking this money then there is no reason for you to get torked up, is there? Did I strike a nerve?

 

[Leftinbuilding]

Tieguy, I am relatively new to this forum so I don't know your level of management, but you seem stuck on integrity and that is not a bad thing. However, I wonder just how consistent you are. Have you ever received your year-end bonus and known in your heart that nothing YOU did really warranted the bonus? that is was earned FOR you by the hard work of your underlings? Did you refuse it? Just curious.

 

[tieguy]

Tieguy, I am relatively new to this forum so I don't know your level of management, but you seem stuck on integrity and that is not a bad thing. However, I wonder just how consistent you are. Have you ever received your year-end bonus and known in your heart that nothing YOU did really warranted the bonus? that is was earned FOR you by the hard work of your underlings? Did you refuse it? Just curious.

I would if I ever had a year where I didn't earn it. How about you? I'm sure you took advantage of the opportunity to earn bonuses off of others labor? Have you given any back?

 

[Channahon]

Stock awards are recommended by Division Managers and based on an employees evalutions throughout the year. So there is an incentive to do your job and earn your stock award. The 1/2 month bonus check usually goes hand in hand.