Economic recovery package before Congress"would provide massive fiscal stimulus."

wkmac

Well-Known Member
First, let's state the facts and that is in the last half of the 1990's the US gov't was making some headway in balancing budgets, showing potential surpluses and even possible signs that some extra paying down on the national debt. I personally think this was possible because of a divided gov't as no party or ideology had a monopoly on power to some extent. In that, both political sides can claim credit whether you like it or not.

In 2000', a single party gained political power in both legislative and executive and even with an impressive increase in total tax revenues during that time, (yes even in light of the tax cuts) spending (both defense and non defense) shot through the roof. The federal debt ceiling was raised multiple times also during this period and let's again be honest, the opposing party in many respects went along for the ride with little real opposition other than when it came to face time in the media. C-Span and Congressional Records research will clearly show just how 2 faced both political factions really are when it's time to step up to the plate.

We all know pretty much the history of the last 8 years so to speak and now today we find ourselves in a huge economic mess. The gov't, now under new management, is in reality taking the same approach as old management did and that is to borrow massive amounts of monies in the hopes of stimulating the economy. The previous management borrowed money and they didn't sit on it but intervened and selectively spent that money into the economy. In otherwords, they took money or in this case of borrowing, future money from productive people who earned it and transferred that money to who the gov't thought would best serve their interests. It's a fuedal serfism in modern clothng.

Now the new management is doing the very same thing except this time the money will go to whom the new management thinks will serve their interests the best but in either case, you have a gov't taking the future from productive citizens who are working and earning that money with THEIR labor and transferring to others who never earned it other than being better connected at the gov't level. This goes equally whether you are taking public welfare, corp. welfare or yes even defense spending.

I do believe the massive amount of money creation out of thin air that we've seen over the last 8 now add the 9th year is very much a bubble just like the real estate bubble was. You load to much air into a balloon and it will pop. I believe hyper inflation in the years ahead is a real risk and gov't would rather hyper inflate killing your wealth but it sames them to keep them in power and more importantly saves them to make their debt payments. Deflation however spoils the GDP to debt ratio, creates an over extention crisis for the gov't and they at some point would have to default on the loans, the people would wake up and the gov't as we know it would be thrown from power as it would have to re-organize itself.

All this said, the 4 minute video at the link below discusses the real potential of what's ahead and IMO makes the case that arguing where the stimulus money goes in really meaningless. The fact that the gov't is expanding the money supply furhter with more debt is the real issue at hand.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/025319.html

The real legacy of the repulbican control of Washington in the future won't be Iraq's success or even Afghanistan, their legacy as the truth unfolds will be they were the biggest tax increasers of all time. The tax?


INFLATION! HYPER-INFLATION!

jmo.

But fear not red staters, the blue staters are working fast to try and overtake and knock you off that lofty perch. You see, they ain't that bright either!:happy-very:

Yes Over, I reframed from my potty mouth even though it's well justified!
:wink2:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Looks like Pelosi got her $30 million for that lousy salt marsh harvest mouse. I guarantee, if that mouse was in her house, she'd call an exterminator !!

Stimulus my :censored2: !! :angry:

I can't stand Pelosi either (reasons including her backstabbing of Dennis Kucinich) and would love to cheer your comment on as well as Baba's ACORN comment but there is reason to believe both cases may well be untrue. This morning I was listening to the Neal Boortz show (sadly a former true libertarian :wink2:) and IMO the best part of his show and about the only reason I listen is he had Washington Correspondent Jamie Dupree on discussing the happening of that day.

Of course the Stimulus came up. Jamie talked about the stimulus and during the course mentioned the infamous marsh mouse and the fact these was not in the bill and was more than likely political myth. He also stated there was no direct mention of ACORN but he did say that in some twisted manner of the legislation ie political manipulation, ACORN might get lucky and get some money but based on his reading he wouldn't bet on it. Even Neal seemed to conceed to both points as he didn't once argue otherwise and believe me, Neal will and can hold his own but he will also slam the door or pure BS. I'd like for some of those here who think this arguement of Obama's place of birth has merit to call Neal because he'll slam that one down real hard and real quick.

Below is directly from Jamie's website and it has the actually links to the latest versions of the Stimulus package so you can read it for yourself. If you guys find the Marsh Mouse and the ACORN part, please by all means post it and I'll cheer you on but there is already enough garbage and crap in the thing to begin with to be against it and that's just sticking to the facts. Let's just stick to the facts instead of relying on republican punditry who to be honest championed this mess to begin with that not only lost Congress to the democrats but got Obama elected.

Now those are some facts you should be dealing with!

Jamie Dupree
Read The Stimulus Bill Yourself

By Jamie Dupree @ February 13, 2009 9:25 AM

You know you've got the time at work today to look at some of the provisions in the economic stimulus bill that will be approved by the Congress in coming hours.
I will post four links here. The first two take you to the actual bill language of the spending and tax provisions in the bill. The most interesting ones to read are probably the second two, which do explain some of what's going on.

https://web.archive.org/web/20091202052541/http://www.house.gov/billtext/hr1_legtext_cr.pdf - Division A - 31.9 MB

https://web.archive.org/web/20100307095942/http://www.house.gov/billtext/hr1_legtext_crb.pdf - Division B - 876 kb

https://web.archive.org/web/20100304084350/http://www.house.gov/billtext/hr1_cr_jes.pdf - Statment Div A - 13.9 MB

https://web.archive.org/web/20100205071901/http://www.house.gov/billtext/hr1_cr_jesb.pdf - Statement Div B - 32.4 MB

You might notice all the handwritten edits and additions in both the bill text and the explanatory statement sections.
As of 9:30 this morning, that is the absolute latest version of the bill and conference report for lawmakers and staff as well.
There is no latest electronic, fully searchable version available for lawmakers or the public at this point in time.

http://wsbradio.com/blogs/jamie_dupree/2009/02/read-the-stimulus-bill-yoursel.html

BTW: You could say the way these links lack search functions that this goes against the Obama ideal of Transparency. Then again, this is Congress were talking about! LMAO!!!!!
 

outamyway

Well-Known Member
Let's see. If this is our money we're talking about, why weren't
we allowed to vote on how it was spent? It's being handed out like a deck of cards. Would we have agreed hands down on -

$4 billion to fight crime in small communities like Frog Suck, Wyoming and Lizard Lick, North Carolina.

$450 million to NASA for “climate-research missions”. Is Al Gore somewhere out in space studying global warming?

$50 million for the National Endowment of the Arts. Yes. We are totally furious that we might miss that next big abstract film festival.

$350 million for new Agriculture Department computers.

$87 million for a U.S. Coast Guard polar icebreaking ship (Earth to Al Gore. We need you down here!!!)

$150 million for Smithsonian renovations.

$380 million for a rainy-day nutrition fund.

$600 million to buy the feds new hybrid cars

$500 million to spruce up the National Institutes of Health offices.

$448 million for a new Homeland Security Department building.

$88 million to move the Public Health Service into new digs.

(I'll take a new $5 million dollar home.. and a hybrid, please)

$79 billion to the states. Dummy me. Here I thought we had state taxes...

$1.1 billion to research health care.

$245 million to upgrade IT at the Farm Service Agency (???)

$500 million to speed up processing applications for S.S. disability claims.

$6 billion to college and universities, who already receive hundreds of billions a year. Yet the only decent financial aid my kid found, who does well in school, was with the military.

Now. Not that these issues don't need to be addressed, but this money will not make jobs appear. It will create more dependency on the government -
$20 billion for food stamps
$1.7 billion for the homeless
$ 5 billion for public housing
$87 billion for Medicaid, which already costs a $400 billion year

:why:

We did vote, their called elections. The problem is very few people look into the candidates themselves. They just base their vote on what others(mostly the media) have told them.

The Dems are in complete control because half the country hates Republicans. Ask some of those haters why, and I guarantee you most will give you a response straight out of an MSNBC or CNN reporters mouth. A one sided Government is dangerous.(we will see why very soon)

I dislike the Republican party because most of them are not what a Republican should be. They are just now trying to be tough and stand up to the Dems. Hmm, a little late aren't we, since all their no votes will never be enough. They can't even add amendments to bills anymore. When all this stimulus doesn't do ****, guess who will be blamed though.



There are 7 different versions of the bill available for us to see. The most recent one still shows as being 750 pages long. Where are the other 300 pages everyone is screaming about?

The 1434 page PDF has version 6 crossed out. And version 7 starts on page 678. There is more to this bill than we can see, and it won't be seen until it is passed. There is a reason the 8th version was pushed through as hard and fast as it was. They lied to everyones face about how there would be time to do this and that, and Obama will sign this "stimulus" without blinking an eye(or reading it).

No reason to be sly when no one can do anything about it.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
We did vote, their called elections. The problem is very few people look into the candidates themselves. They just base their vote on what others(mostly the media) have told them.

The Dems are in complete control because half the country hates Republicans. Ask some of those haters why, and I guarantee you most will give you a response straight out of an MSNBC or CNN reporters mouth. A one sided Government is dangerous.(we will see why very soon)

I dislike the Republican party because most of them are not what a Republican should be. They are just now trying to be tough and stand up to the Dems. Hmm, a little late aren't we, since all their no votes will never be enough. They can't even add amendments to bills anymore. When all this stimulus doesn't do ****, guess who will be blamed though.



There are 7 different versions of the bill available for us to see. The most recent one still shows as being 750 pages long. Where are the other 300 pages everyone is screaming about?

The 1434 page PDF has version 6 crossed out. And version 7 starts on page 678. There is more to this bill than we can see, and it won't be seen until it is passed. There is a reason the 8th version was pushed through as hard and fast as it was. They lied to everyones face about how there would be time to do this and that, and Obama will sign this "stimulus" without blinking an eye(or reading it).

No reason to be sly when no one can do anything about it.

Good post!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I'd like to ask a question and I'm asking just out of a desire for my own understanding of what people are thinking.

In the fall of 2008', we learned or rather the gov't finally admitted the economy was not in the best of shape. As days went by, the problem became more dire to the point that the Bush adminstration told the Congress that if something wasn't done, a complete collaspe was a sure bet and that dire consequences would result. In a panic, Congress, even in the face of large scale public opposition, passed (in large bi-partisan numbers) what we now know as the TARP bill. TARP IMO was sold as an idea to
SAVE THE ECONOMY
but I think it's safe to say at this point, TARP was a failure if that was the intended case. I'm not buying that myself (the intended case part) but regardless, TARP was a bust.

In the meantime, the economy got worse and yeah it wasn't pretty but the clamour across the land from the beltway was something more has to be done. As a result, this past week we got the current
Economic Stimulus Package
that again is sold on the pretext that to do nothing would result in very dire consequences. It was almost like a remark of an earlier movie except the hope is the endiing will be much better and for obvious reason that even I can understand.:wink2:

Now when the TARP deal was the plan of the day, I was very proud of a lot of folks here who for the most part had loyally followed the previous adminstration no matter what but on this stood up and just said "hell no!" And they were correct then and proven correct now IMO as the results clearly show. However, there were a couple of loyalist diehards who did defend the TARP plan and gov't action and this leads up to the current situation. For the most part, the people who opposed TARP here in this forum are now equally opposing the present plan and I'm damn proud of you. To borrow a phrase from a worthless entertainer,
You're a great American!

But among the opposing voices to the earlier plan, a few are now championing the current Stimulus plan and of those few who championed TARP, they now have blended into the chorus of opposition. And it's to these folks who obviously have no problem with gov't intervention, as long as it's from a certain political persuasion, that I want to pose the following question.

Using the premise, that you do not oppose gov't intervention, my "what if" question is, what do we do next if the stimulus plan does not work? I'm not saying it will or won't just that I'd like to know from those who favor intervention and being it's very clear their interventionist belief is the preveiling belief in Washington now, what or where do we go next if this doesn't work? Do we take the next step and overtly nationalize industries across the board or in reality kill what little micro pieces of free market still exist in our economy even now? Or would we dare consider going in reverse and even so far as long lost forgotten monetary policies as a possible solution out of this mess? For example, a scaping of the fiat money central bank, a return to Art. 1 Sec. 8 Constitutional authority pertaining to money and an Art. 1 Sec 10 Constitutional type of monetary system?

Look I know President Obama's ink ain't even on the bill yet so who truly can say what will happen but I'd just like to know what you economic interventionist think we should do if the current course also fails. How bout it, care to toss out your ideas for us to consider so the rest of us great unwashed can plan our lives around the course of action from gov't that you, the great washed, have swayed your way in the corridors of power.

BTW: This question is to both republican and demoicrat economic interventionist and this means interventionism on any level. And what do I mean when I use the term, "Economic Interventionism"? This ain't bad and works as a basic premise.

Economic interventionism or economic planning is any action taken by a government, beyond the basic regulation of fraud and enforcement of contracts, in an effort to affect its own economy.[citation needed] Economic intervention can be aimed at a variety of political or economic objectives, such as promoting economic growth, increasing employment, raising wages, raising or reducing prices, promoting equality, managing the money supply and interest rates, or addressing market failures. The intervention may to direct, or indirect as in the case of indicative planning. When this economic planning is extensive, the economy is referred to as a planned economy.
Economic interventionism is generally associated with the political left (moderate socialist, center-left liberal, Social Democrat or green parties) which believes that certain market outcomes are undesirable or ineffective and ought to be mitigated. Economic interventionism is sometimes practiced by national conservative, fascist and right-wing parties with the thinking that the free market can damage national traditions, social order, or the authority of the state itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_interventionism



I look forward to reading your ideas and being enlightened by them!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I think the next step would be to burn the Constitution live on pay per view.

They did that decades ago if not now 2 centuries past. Can you say Happy Birthday Abe Lincoln?

It wasn't on pay per view but they did film it. Last I heard Obama (Abe 2) is continuing a long trend among Presidents and maintaining the film under the State Secrets Privilege.

:happy-very:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Sadly, I doubt many people would even be interested enough to watch.

And I'd bet the farm that feeling would be a large almost unnanimous bi-partisan feeling too!

Who sez Americans lack bi-partisanship!

More wine and circ......uh I mean beer and hot wings! Bring on the Hooter girls and turn the channel to ESPN!
 

Sammie

Well-Known Member
I'd like to ask a question and I'm asking just out of a desire for my own understanding of what people are thinking.

In the fall of 2008', we learned or rather the gov't finally admitted the economy was not in the best of shape. As days went by, the problem became more dire to the point that the Bush adminstration told the Congress that if something wasn't done, a complete collaspe was a sure bet and that dire consequences would result. In a panic, Congress, even in the face of large scale public opposition, passed (in large bi-partisan numbers) what we now know as the TARP bill. TARP IMO was sold as an idea to but I think it's safe to say at this point, TARP was a failure if that was the intended case. I'm not buying that myself (the intended case part) but regardless, TARP was a bust.

In the meantime, the economy got worse and yeah it wasn't pretty but the clamour across the land from the beltway was something more has to be done. As a result, this past week we got the current that again is sold on the pretext that to do nothing would result in very dire consequences. It was almost like a remark of an earlier movie except the hope is the endiing will be much better and for obvious reason that even I can understand.:wink2:

Using the premise, that you do not oppose gov't intervention, my "what if" question is, what do we do next if the stimulus plan does not work? http://

I see a lot of quick fixes, like little bandaids on a huge, gaping wound. Unemployment benefits and welfare, putting the homeless up for a little while longer, building a few more public housing units (which are no more than rat holes) will employ a few people at best for a short time. Constructing a school or a road or a bridge will offer someone a job for a few months. I don't see anywhere in this "Wish List" a steady job that will last 25 years. That's what folks are looking for.

What makes sense is that the government does not and cannot create jobs. Only the market can create jobs. We need to become more self sufficient, or wait for Chinese and Indian companies to outsource their jobs back to us.

We wear clothes and shoes every day. So invest in textiles. We drive cars and watch TV every day. Those products should be made here. We need to make and sell items that will be purchased by the rest of the globe. (But it's probably too late for that ...):dissapointed:. Are we number one in medical research? If not, why not? Never hear beans about that... Do we have enough natural resources to sell for a profit? (If we can ever get past the drilling B.S.)

Bloating our national debt is an answer for today to a problem that will last for decades. Wall street should learn that failure should not be rewarded. The government needs money. Cut taxes for businesses and the working people and both will have more money to spend. That sure as hell makes more sense than government spending.
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
"President Obama hailed the stimulus bill's passage by the Senate Tuesday. What a close call. Right now the country is evenly divided between the people who are terrified of eating the poisoned peanut butter and the people who are shopping for it. "

~Argus Hamilton~
 

moreluck

golden ticket member
I can't believe that the United Nations wants a piece of the recovery stimulus pie.

I'd like to send them a pie along with Soupy Sales to throw it in their face.

We need to get more selfish with our $$$ for awhile. The U.N. is the same organization that provided 12 & 13 yr. old girls for prostitution for their U.N. members. Sweet group.....NOT!!:surprised:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member

Baba,

I don't have to find the mouse because the mouse is irrelevant IMO. I don't need to justify my opposing massive gov't economic intevention via this stimulus package by declaring that Pelosi would get money for a marsh mouse. I'm almost of the opinion that if someone declared the provision of the Marsh Mouse or the monies to ACORN have been removed, those who oppose the stimulus bill on those grounds would then be satisfied and either go quietly into the night on even champion the bill. Obviously, they've failed to object on any other grounds.

IMHO this is the job of mindless fools to find the mouse and in this day and time of increasing jobless rates, I'd hate to be called heartless and evil (TOS and D hate me enough already on these grounds!) by finding the mouse and taking the job of a mindless fool!

See ya around. ScareCrow

signed

Tin Man!
:wink2:

At least I didn't call you a cowardly lion, thats the democrats!
:happy-very::happy-very::happy-very:

Welcome to Darkside of the Rainbow

We're off to see the wizard!

The lunatic is in the hall.
The lunatics are in my hall.
The paper holds their folded faces to the floor
And every day the paper boy brings more.

God how true that really is!

Sammie,

Thanks for your response. I was really hoping some of the folks here who championed gov't intervention, either the current plan or the earlier TARP idea under Bush, would be willing to step forward and give us their ideas of what the next steps should be if this current stimulus idea doesn't work as expected. As you can see, I'm still waiting!
:happy-very:
 

tieguy

Banned
If we are going to do the charity thing then pay off peoples mortgages. I know I would reward the country if they paid mine off by buying a new suv.:happy-very:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
I think the next step would be to burn the Constitution live on pay per view.

I just read this piece entitled "Gingrich on the Rocks" and some of the comments in the article re-enforced what you said above.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/manion/manion91.html

3. Be prepared to oppose Republicans when they are wrong and side with Democrats when they are right,

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/11/where-does-the-conservative-movement-go-from-here/

In the past Newt has championed the likes and ideals of democrats like Woodrow Wilson, FDR and Truman and all 3 were interventionist in all manner to the core. Well I'll be, Baba is a real pickle as one of his hero's advocates support of the FDR....I'm sorry democrats... I mean the Obama "MOUSE" stimulus plan.

Congrats democrats as it's crystal clear to me that you've won the day! The republican party came to be run by lunatics and so-called conservatives couldn't "keep the loonies on the path!"

To democrats I quote the great evil dark lord, Darth Vader:

Impressive, very impressive!

:happy-very:

For you Obama-Mommas to have some fun with:

In an interview with Pete DuPont on a PBS Frontline special entitled, "The Long March of Newt Gingrich"

Q: When Newt Gingrich starts talking about Franklin D. Roosevelt as one of his most impressive heroes, does that make you a little nervous?


Du Pont: No, because Franklin Roosevelt was a President who had to govern at a time of crisis, so was Abraham Lincoln, so was Winston Churchill, the leader of the British, at a time of crisis. Boy this part is telling! And if you're going to make fundamental changes in the way a nation thinks, you have to have the ability to take the crisis of the moment and use it to shape an agenda.Rahm, you just got vindicated dude and by a couple of republicans!
Franklin Roosevelt was very good at that. We don't particularly agree with the way his agenda turned out, though to tell you the truth, I think it was more Lyndon Johnson's fault than Franklin Roosevelt's. Nevertheless, he was a great leader. He saw how to use the levers of power to affect change. No wonder Newt appreciates that because that's what he sees too. And how is this different from the Obama/Emmanual approach to governance?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newt/newtintwshtml/dupont5.html

If you think Gingrich would have taken a decided oppostie approach to Obama, think again!

:happy-very::happy-very::happy-very:
 

1989

Well-Known Member
If you spent a million dollars a day since the birth of Christ you still wouldn't have spent what the recovery package costs.
 

UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)

Well-Known Member
If you spent a million dollars a day since the birth of Christ you still wouldn't have spent what the recovery package costs.


When I first read this, I said to myself, "This ain't right!"

However:

2008 * 365 = 732920

732920 * 1000000 = 732,920,000,000

Of course this does not take in to account leap years and the 46 days so far this year.
 
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