EEOC wins right to review UPS' no-beard policy nationally

[Dustyroads]

I think the EEOC will sort this one out. Insofar as there are probably very few UPS drivers who have legitimate religious beliefs that would be impacted by the no beard's policy, an adverse ruling by EEOC would have very little impact on most UPS drivers.

I noticed a few months ago in the Teamster magazine, there was a photograph of a group of drivers, I cannot recall what urban area they were from, but there were a bunch of them, and one guy had a untrimmed beard and a turban on his head, wearing a UPS driver's uniform.

I always try to understand or at least accept other people's religious beliefs, when they don't infringe on other's rights or beliefs. I think in this case, the beard (and turban) causes very little damage to UPS, and does protect the individual's religious belief, so I imagine that EEOC will rule against UPS in this one. Except for the few Sikh's that may work for us, and maybe some Mennonites, I don't think most of us should throw that razor away.

 

[bluehdmc]

50 yrs ago male employees couldn't have an earring but now they can. Does anyone know if it was against policy for mustaches?
UPS can change these rules, why can't they change the beard rule. I realize everyone has their own OPINION about a beard, but they can have the option to shave if they so desire.

 

[Dustyroads]

The policy I am familiar with concerning mustaches was one they used to enforce more strictly, no mustaches that extend below the corners of the mouth. They said, if we wondered if it was too long, put one's timecard in one's mouth, if the mustache touches the timecard, it's too long. That's just what the old school rule was.

I did go in the office a number of years ago at the request of a buddy of mine to hear him be verbally warned about his mustache being too long.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

But how about UPSs "Equal Opportunity Employer" status? Does this mean religious people with beards can only be janitors? Doesn't "Equal Opportunity" mean equal opportunity to be a driver as well?

Do you always walk around with that can of gasoline?

50 yrs ago male employees couldn't have an earring but now they can. Does anyone know if it was against policy for mustaches?
UPS can change these rules, why can't they change the beard rule. I realize everyone has their own OPINION about a beard, but they can have the option to shave if they so desire.

I think these are all franchise rules. In my franchise, guys are not allowed to wear earrings.

 

[satellitedriver]

The policy I am familiar with concerning mustaches was one they used to enforce more strictly, no mustaches that extend below the corners of the mouth. They said, if we wondered if it was too long, put one's timecard in one's mouth, if the mustache touches the timecard, it's too long. That's just what the old school rule was.

Old school rule.
You made me laugh remembering the old time card mustache routine.
I have always had a mustache, even my wife has never seen my upper lip after 35yrs.
Joking with my sup back in the 80's I asked him to give me the time card test. I bit the time card and used my lip to curl it down. I could have had a Fu Manchu and met the time card test.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Old school rule.
You made me laugh remembering the old time card mustache routine.
I have always had a mustache, even my wife has never seen my upper lip after 35yrs.
Joking with my sup back in the 80's I asked him to give me the time card test. I bit the time card and used my lip to curl it down. I could have had a Fu Manchu and met the time card test.

Just so the kids can have a reference.

 

[Dis-organized Labor]

What if I started a religion that mandates that I recognize Fridays as a Sabbath day and I cannot perform any work, then what? I don't think the company should adjust my work schedule or accomodate me in any way. My new religion is just as creditable as any other

 

[unsmoothcriminal]

What if I started a religion that mandates that I recognize Fridays as a Sabbath day and I cannot perform any work, then what? I don't think the company should adjust my work schedule or accomodate me in any way. My new religion is just as creditable as any other

very true, you COULD start your own, BUT there is one out there... http://www.venganza.org/ - the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster- check it out, with was created on a similar "My religion is just as creditable as yours" premise! oh, and since when you go to an FSM Gathering, (much like a sunday morning service, only on fridays... and in the evening) you don't wear a suit and tie, you dress in His chosen garb, Pirate Regalia! and what self respecting pirate goes without a beard? i mean... have you ever tried to shave on a pirate ship? talk about a slip-o-the-razor...

 

[Dis-organized Labor]

very true, you COULD start your own, BUT there is one out there... http://www.venganza.org/ - the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster- check it out, with was created on a similar "My religion is just as creditable as yours" premise! oh, and since when you go to an FSM Gathering, (much like a sunday morning service, only on fridays... and in the evening) you don't wear a suit and tie, you dress in His chosen garb, Pirate Regalia! and what self respecting pirate goes without a beard? i mean... have you ever tried to shave on a pirate ship? talk about a slip-o-the-razor...

Holy Sheet!

I want to be a Pastavarian now!
Awesome and fascinating reply!!!

 

[unsmoothcriminal]

Holy Sheet!

I want to be a Pastavarian now!
Awesome and fascinating reply!!!

Pastafarian... nice, you looked at the site enough to enough know what we're called!!! i'm impressed!

but to seriously reply to this thread, as i was discussing this issue with my superiors the other day... according to my center manager, there was a time when UPS (at least locally i presume) allowed neatly trimmed beards for management and drivers alike, but as was stated earlier one persons view of "neat" is going to be someone else view of "oh my, shave that wolverine off your chin!" so there in lies the problem, and why i can see the reasons for upholding the rules...

now, the topic at hand was in regards to religion, and as a Pastafarian, i truely believe in the freedom of such... but i also think that since the 1960's, "equal rights" has become "special rights" - i agree with sober completely- if you subscribe to such a religion, then don't seek employment somewhere that has a no-beard policy, what if a 7th day Adventist applied to deliver air? would they be allowed to not work saturdays? no... they would either have to work saturdays or take another position... and every 7th day Adventist i know always seeks employment somewhere with saturdays off, it just comes with the faith...

now look at from the point of view of safety (since we're all UPSers... we should ALWAYS look at it like that) if you work at certain factories you have to be clean shaven/short cut hair for safety reasons, (ie, hair gets caught in machines... burned by molten metals, or gets into foods...) people with beards either shave or seek employment elsewhere...

those are just my 2 cents on the subject... can't wait to see how it turns out, maybe one day i'll be able to grow out my facial hair once more!

 

[CRASH501]

How about the rasta men? UPS has really broken chops over having dreads.

.
.
had 2 guys in my center with dreads .
as long as they were kept obove shoulders tied back , never had a problem, neither was rasta,
1 was dominican
the other was puerto rican ,
.

 

[Dustyroads]

What if I started a religion that mandates that I recognize Fridays as a Sabbath day and I cannot perform any work, then what? I don't think the company should adjust my work schedule or accomodate me in any way. My new religion is just as creditable as any other

Dis-organized, why don't you just give that a try. Tomorrow is Friday, maybe you should tell your manager that you'll be in church tomorrow.

I am not sure what your boss will think, but I'm pretty sure that the Federal courts would recognize your religion as a sham. It's just a guess, but you can find out; just skip out tomorrow, hire your lawyer after you've been fired, and wait for 5 years for it to go through court.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

.
.
had 2 guys in my center with dreads .
as long as they were kept obove shoulders tied back , never had a problem, neither was rasta,
1 was dominican
the other was puerto rican ,
.

Oh My, Not a Puerto Rican!!!

 

[Anonymous 10]

I can't imagine Jesus without a beard!!!

What about a handelbar mustache.

 

[Pump Up The Volume]

How is it constitutionally acceptable that an outside entity control's an individual's bodily functions? Just of the top of my head Roe vs. Wade comes to mind. In the end, the outside entity has no right to the individual's body or functions of nature?

 

[J WALES]

I work in the office. We have a no facial hair policy as well. Except mustaches. I have never met the first customer. For several years, I had a goatee, I was hired with it, badge has it and no issues. Only some old timers giving me nasty looks when I smile going down the hall. But they are the same ones that don't know how to say hi when you pass them anyway. Now I grew a beard. It's trimmed neatly. What's the issue? UPS as to adapt to the times. Every other man you see has facial hair. Watch TV, go to the store. Our Whiteboard Commercial guy has hair long enough to put in a ponytail. Even the Whiteboard ads on UPSers show men with beards....We are selling hats with tears and rips in them in our new apparel catalog. I know it's weird, but times have changed. Would you rather have your customer ride in an elevator with a male UPS employee with a nicely trimmed beard, or a UPS employee that just came in from huffing down a couple cigs on the smoking block and smells like an ashtray? We are focused on the wrong issues here....

Face it, some men look better with neatly trimmed facial hair. Some dont. I am actualy down right ugly without my beard! UPS needs to relax this beard policy for good. It's too old and outdated. A man can be neat about facial hair. It's also a proven fact that people feel relaxed around men with beards. They are not bad guys, they are mostly down to earth guys....crew cuts and clean shaven faces and ties and suits don't win contracts....being friendly, honest and trustworthy do. A person who looks and acts uptight and like they are better than anyone and frowns upon a fellow man because he has a neatly trimmed beard can intimidate our customers and our employees. UPS should think about these things.....our competitors are taking our business away from us....as well as our good employees....UPS must face the facts....Does Home Depot have any trouble with beards, does Lowes, does Costco? Check out the annual reports for these companies......I have to say the billions they make are more from great customer service, being nice, friendly and on the same level with their customers, rather than worrying about grown men having beards!

 

[stevetheupsguy]

Would you rather have your customer ride in an elevator with a male UPS employee with a nicely trimmed beard, or a UPS employee that just came in from huffing down a couple cigs on the smoking block and smells like an ashtray? We are focused on the wrong issues here....

Face it, some men look better with neatly trimmed facial hair. Some dont. I am actualy down right ugly without my beard! UPS needs to relax this beard policy for good. It's too old and outdated. A man can be neat about facial hair. It's also a proven fact that people feel relaxed around men with beards. They are not bad guys, they are mostly down to earth guys....crew cuts and clean shaven faces and ties and suits don't win contracts....being friendly, honest and trustworthy do. A person who looks and acts uptight and like they are better than anyone and frowns upon a fellow man because he has a neatly trimmed beard can intimidate our customers and our employees. UPS should think about these things.....our competitors are taking our business away from us....as well as our good employees....UPS must face the facts....Does Home Depot have any trouble with beards, does Lowes, does Costco? Check out the annual reports for these companies......I have to say the billions they make are more from great customer service, being nice, friendly and on the same level with their customers, rather than worrying about grown men having beards!

A UPS no smoking policy? Aside from your grotesqueness, the idea of a guy with a beard is fine, but how many WILL actually keep it neat and trimmed? How many will look ugly with the beard that is now permissible? Times change, but some things are better left alone.

 

[J WALES]

Yes, a no smoking policy would make more sense than a no beard policy. They should focus on helping people live healthy lives and the overwieght employess rather than condeming grown men with beards......funny they push weight watchers then have Krispy Cream Doughnut fundraisers! Of course the smokers come through the same area! I am not against any person though....it's the policies and where they foucs that needs to be updated......it's a shame we even have conversations over topics like this. I have a multi-million dollar account with a major outdoor hunting and fishing retailer.....I don't think they treat their employees this way....and I doubt they would look at a man any different with a beard than without....it's how you treat your customers....each other....it's called great customer service.....and that is what people remember....beards are not an issue anymore.....the little old lady odering a hat from Leggets in 1920 is gone....we are a more mature society now....some men just don't like other men because they are jealous they can't have a beard and we prefer to wear one. Adabt and move foward....

 

[WardenJr]

How is it constitutionally acceptable that an outside entity control's an individual's bodily functions? Just of the top of my head Roe vs. Wade comes to mind. In the end, the outside entity has no right to the individual's body or functions of nature?

Quite simply, because the Constitution does not apply to the workplace. Or more correctly, it does not apply to the rules an employer makes, so long as they don't infringe on existing law. An employer can mandate all sorts of things that the government can't. An employer can search your locker (subject to the collective bargaining agreement, if applicable), an employer can apply an outright ban to firearms on its property, an employer can limit speech and assembly on the property, etc.

You can get into a sticky area with religion due to discrimination laws.

Roe v. Wade does not apply because it addresses the States' right, or lack thereof, to limit abortions...the States', not a private individual or corportation.

When you accept employement with a company, you accept certain guidelines and rules. You can try to change them, but to claim something is un-Constitutional is wrong. Something may be illegal and it can be challenged that way. Too my knowledge, there is no law prohibiting an employer from banning beards.

 

[tieguy]

Let the courts decide.

I personally hope the company loses this one because I have never agreed with the no beard rule. If it were a safety issue I would understand, but it's not.

If the company loses this case then the only thing you gain is the right to wear a beard for religious reasons.

UPS has made its reputation for a variety of reasons including appearance. Appearance allows our drivers in the front door of most businesses where employees from other trucking companies have to go in the back door or loading dock. Front door access is a big advantage to our business.

I know I don't think much of the scruffy looking dirt bags delivering fdx ground. For that reason I definitely don't think much of fdx ground.

Losing the case would not automatically allow everyone to have a beard.