Iraq

wkmac

Well-Known Member
its time to start preparations to end the Iraqi war. We should start by carpet bombing faluj with nukes while simultaneously offering the leaderhsip of the insurgency the chance to negotiate a peacefull settlement to the war. No settlement more nukes. The problem with wars is we trying to fight them in a humane fashion. Its an oxymoron of policy to do so.

Tie,
In a true warlike mindset, your idea is really right on the money. It's sad that at one time King's and their armies gathered together on some remote vast plain, without village, without town's folk, without women and children and then fought the battle to determine the outcome. The winner would thus march into the loser's empire and without objection or revolt, the victorious King would assume the throne for that area and the people adapted and moved on. We don't do wars like that anymore and is it not odd that we point our arrogant fingers at these earlier peoples and with contempt, boast against them and revere in our own advanced and technological grandeur while we age war among women and children. I also wonder how many wars would ever be fought if it was a cardinal rule that all national leaders (Presidents, Kings, Dictators, Whatever) by global law had to personally lead their armies onto the field of battle. You want global piece? There's the secret my friend because these cowards would never have the stomach to do that. Back in the day Kings led their own armies personally on the field of battle. Now the cowards phone and email it all in!

We don't have the stomach to use nuke weapons and the blunt truth is they are only a weapon of terror even by any gov't who has them. Nukes, depending on you opinion of war itself, had their place in the dawn of the nuclear age because we lacked the capacity of accurate delivery of a weapon onto a single target. Until that point in August of 1945' our method was to massive carpet bomb, Coventry England and Dresden Gremany being prime examples of our handy work, and if one would sit down and compare the death and distruction we inflicted on German civilian population or German on the British for example and then compare that to Hiroshima and Nagosaki, one could argue the Germans and the Brits too, got the worst deal than the Japanese. But we see the 2 bombing events of Japan as being so horrible because of the destruction in just one punch.

Even in boxing, what impresses us more, a fight of many rounds of punch and counter punch that wear an oppenent down to a final knockout in the 13th round or a Mike Tyson walks out and 30 seconds into the 1st round the opponent is out cold on the ring floor? To the opponent, what is the difference? None really! But Mike Tyson like that one drop bomb terrorizes us and the gov't know this.

Does the US need a nuke weapon at all? Nope and I mean absolutely no! With our ability now of such exact target strike capability, nuclear weapons are literally as ancient a weapon of war as the spear. It's only purpose now is a weapon of terror and a goal for those nations who lack the technological skills to develop highly accurate weapons systems. If nuke weapons were the end all, why the time, effort and vast sums of money spent of conventional type bombs with advanced and highly accurate delivery systems. Most people including myself sat with a "so what, big deal" attitude to Rumsfeld's "Shock and Awe" bombing of Bagdad the opening nights of the war. What were we waiting on? The "BIG FIRECRACKER" that's what. Gee Rumy, where's the big flash and bang? What we failed to see and thus why "shock and awe" turned into "bore and yawn" was the image of Japan in August of 1945'. The shock and awe really was the advancement of precision bombing that America had achieved since the 1991' Gulf War. I'm sure Saddam and Company and others across the region very much got the "shock and awe" that Rumsfeld spoke of and it just took us a little longer to understand the point. You could say Saddam is smarter than us but then again he had the advantage of seeing all this stuff "Firsthand!" :wink:

Fast forward Japan 1945' to Dec 2006' and America has to decide how to end the war with Japan with today's technology. Do you think we'd still drop Fat Man and Little Boy or would Hiroshima and Nagosaki see or I should say maybe hear a salvo of crusie missles and sorties of stealth bombers with highly accurate smart bombs? That is exactly why nukes aren't deployed in any wartime theater in this day. They are quite frankly of no use other than to terrorize non-combative civilian populations and serve no other use. Even our bunker busters are non-nuke and the latest built bohemoth bomb, the Moab, is a non-nuke weapon.

I look forward to the day that all nuke weapons on the face of the earth no longer exist other than as chapters in the history of mankind. I also hope that the only chapter on actual use will only be written about the US in 1945'. What's done is done and let's hope it's never done again for all our sakes.

If you don't think that psy-ops plays into weapons, well consider this:

It is expected that the weapon will have a substantial psychological effect on those who witness its use. The massive weapon provides a capability to perform psychological operations,

GBU-43/B / "Mother Of All Bombs" / Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb

We should have used this many times over at Tora Bora! Forget forcing these clowns out, Just bury their :censored2: for future archelogists to dig up. :thumbup1:
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
What A Mess!

The Stability Problem, Solved - by Pat Buchanan

From the article at the link above:

What is the cause of the impending collapse of the U.S. position across the Middle East? We put democratist ideology ahead of national interests. We projected our ideas of what is right, true, and inevitable onto people who do not share them.

When will Americans and specifically their leaders and public policy shapers of both parties throw off the Wilsonian crusade of "democratizing the world for Jesus" (I say that with disrespectful jest as they see their misison as a type of holy crusade) and just let people live their own lives as they see fit? We've gotten so use to telling each other how we should live by law and public policy that we've adopted an almost "Great Commission" like attitude of doing the same thing to everyone else in the world. Take the democracy message into all the world and force em' if you have too! Will we ever learn that this has never worked in the history of man?

Even Jesus knew the best means was to be the best example and that some would see and follow and some wouldn't and you just move on.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
Looking Ahead to 2008'

Today is the last day of the republican control of the US Congress as they adjorn for the holiday break but on Jan. the 4th, the 2008' election cycle will begin in earnest. Oh, don't kid yourself with the thought that the elections are nearly 2 years away because both sides via their actions in the Congress will be jockeying and grandstanding just for that moment on the 1st Tuesday in Nov. of 08' with the ultimate prize being single party control of the Congress and the White House.

With Jan. 4th fast approaching I thought this piece on the leading Senatorial members being thrown out for White House consideration was worth reading as it pertains to the situation in Iraq. Hope you find it worth reading.

TomPaine.com - Voting For Peace In 2008
 

any122

adirondack man
I just have to coment on the recent report from the panel that gave the poor advice to our president.First they said we are not winning the war in Iraq.Second they say we should engage all neighbors in the region.I say to the people on the panel go to Iraq and tell the generals and troops that they our loosing because they are singing a different toon.Second they the panel should go over and engage Iran and Syria the neighbors that have openly stated that their main intention is to wipe Israel and the United states off the earth.Third explaine to the world after they cut and run why the price of oil is controlled by Iraq after our troops leave and Europe goes bellyup the United states market crashes and the rest of the world all will also pay the price in different ways.We need to look at past wars and stand with our troops and president instead of in back.People should take a moment and read about how the people came together in past wars even both partys in past wars new it would take the whole United States to win the war and even the people at home made sacrifices.Today most could care less if it doesn't effect whats going on in their back yard very sad.Wake up America you can't engage neighbors who don't want to be neighborly.The only thing they understand is power so we should release the power of old glory on them before they release it on us.
 

tieguy

Banned
Tie,
We don't have the stomach to use nuke weapons and the blunt truth is they are only a weapon of terror even by any gov't who has them.
:wink:

I look forward to the day that all nuke weapons on the face of the earth no longer exist other than as chapters in the history of mankind.


GBU-43/B / "Mother Of All Bombs" / Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb

We should have used this many times over at Tora Bora! Forget forcing these clowns out, Just bury their :censored2: for future archelogists to dig up. :thumbup1:


Wkmac ,

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments. I disagree with our countries interpretation of what a war is meant to be. We attempt to somehow fight a war in a humane fashion as if such a thing is possible. My belief is that once we determine a war is necessary we fight it with everything we have. To risk our sons and daughters requires our willingness to fight the war with everything we have as a committment to those who risk their lives. Let it all hang out. To do anything less is to fight a half ass war as we did in Vietnam and as we do now.

Our reason to fight this war were valid. We fought persian gulf war 1. the Iraqis agreed to terms. If they violate those terms then we have an obligation to finish the job.

We believed right or wrong that there were WMD's in Iraq. Most of our leaders including todays dissenting democrats agreed. Once we made the committment to act on these fears we should have done so with a total committment to the act of war.

So in todays world we fight a war in which we try to do so without hurting anyones feelings. In the process an excess of our sons and daughters die needlessly.

If we weren't prepared to make a total committment to war then we should have stayed home.

Either option would have been acceptable to me in this case.

Isolationism did not work in yesterdays world. It may work in todays with all the technological advancements we have gained. Invoke the Monroe Doctrine on any threats in this hemisphere and tell the rest of the world to go to hell. Make a total committment to alternative fuels so we no longer need to care what happens in the middle east.

I'm tired of being policeman to the world. Not because its wrong to do but because we keep sending Barney Fife out with one bullet tucked in his front pocket.
 

Slothrop

Well-Known Member
tieguy said:
Our reason to fight this war were valid. We fought persian gulf war 1. the Iraqis agreed to terms. If they violate those terms then we have an obligation to finish the job.
Care to be more explicit? Did the US act legally?
tieguy said:
We believed right or wrong that there were WMD's in Iraq. Most of our leaders including todays dissenting democrats agreed. Once we made the committment to act on these fears we should have done so with a total committment to the act of war.
Congress was lied to by an administration that was bent on having a war with Iraq regardless of a reason. Intelligence was manipulated to reinforce the desires of the administration. These are impeachable offenses for the entire administration.
tieguy said:
So in todays world we fight a war in which we try to do so without hurting anyones feelings. In the process an excess of our sons and daughters die needlessly.
I would beg to differ as regards to “without hurting anyones (sic) feelings”. A majority of Americans have expressed dissatisfaction with the war. It would be fair to say that every Iraqi, even those who now are American citizens, have had much more than their feelings hurt. I would argue that not one Americans life was worth taking Saddam down, especially when there never was a plan for the aftermath.
tieguy said:
If we weren't prepared to make a total committment to war then we should have stayed home.
tieguy said:
Either option would have been acceptable to me in this case.
Once again, was this war legal? Other than that, I agree, we should have stayed home.
tieguy said:
Isolationism did not work in yesterdays world. It may work in todays with all the technological advancements we have gained. Invoke the Monroe Doctrine on any threats in this hemisphere and tell the rest of the world to go to hell. Make a total committment to alternative fuels so we no longer need to care what happens in the middle east.
Must resist urge to be snarky
tieguy said:
I'm tired of being policeman to the world. Not because its wrong to do but because we keep sending Barney Fife out with one bullet tucked in his front pocket.
Sorry, you crossed a line there. To refer to our troops as being incompetent is inexcusable.
 

Slothrop

Well-Known Member
I've already added susans latest ID to my ignore list. She's shamed herself onto my ignore list and there she will stay.
Follow the lead of our President, ignore what you don't agree with.

I'm kinda hurt, because I stopped myself from being too mean, or pointing out the errors that reflect upon ones intellect.

Barney Fife, indeed!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
3 years ago, the American public stood almost absolute united behind the invasion of Iraq. They cheered as that statue of Saddam came toppling over and we pounded our chests when video of our service men were shown of them in Saddam's palace kicked back smoking cigars. Let's be honest here, they did a excellent job at the task they were given. No question. I think our service men and women are the best there is and they proved it when given the job and the means to do it.

But what about our motives as a nation and people when it comes to making war and now the crumbling support of such a thing as is and has taken place in Iraq. I think we need to step back and ask ourselves as a nation why we may have supported the war to begin with and now why we do not if that be the case on a personal level. Nationally according to polling data, it is true.

If things were different in Iraq, if we were in effect clearly winning the war, would we as a nation be again solidly behind the effort and demand that our leaders not withdraw? Would polling data be the exact opposite? Would the democrats have won the recent election?

Some opinionmakers suggest we turned out republicans because of the corruption and I want to believe that's true. I could only hope and pray that factored in way more than the war because it gives me hope. However, would our historical warlike nature as humans have taken over if we were clearly and completely winning in Iraq and Afghanistan and the clear potential was there to also sack Iran in the process and caused us as a voting body to ignore rightous principles and stick with warring success? Would we ignore our own teams holding, clipping and personal fouls as long as we scored touchdowns and run up the lead on the scoreboard? To be clear here, the clipping, holding and other infractions are directed at the republican Congress and even the executive branch in a number of areas.

Just something this op-ed cuased me to ask myself.

Warmonger Rationale by Ralph R. Reiland
 

Slothrop

Well-Known Member
wkmac,

Three years ago the American public was NOT behind the Iraq invasion. There were many of us that opposed it from the start. The rest believed LIES told to them by their own leaders, and those liars should be removed from office. That is the only way to regain the admiration of the community of nations. It has since been shown that the reasons given were total fabrication, and that there was never a plan beyond 'welcome us with flowers'.

Things aren't different in Iraq, and it is useless to pretend that they could have been. You fancy yourself a student of history, you should know that. Kinda like saying if a toad had wings, it wouldn't have to drag it's... you know the rest.

I don't think it is useful to conjecture 'if we were winning in Iraq & Afghanistan', because no one ever has.

As far as politicians go, once they are in office for a couple of terms, they have a tendancy to get greedy, I think it's human nature. Look at your Teamster contract for a real world example. In a world where corporations have more rights than people, it's to be expected. Your Libertarian utopia is as big a 'pie in the sky' as Bush's vision of the Mideast.

Happy pipe dreams.
 

tieguy

Banned
3 years ago, the American public stood almost absolute united behind the invasion of Iraq. They cheered as that statue of Saddam came toppling over and we pounded our chests when video of our service men were shown of them in Saddam's palace kicked back smoking cigars. Let's be honest here, they did a excellent job at the task they were given. No question. I think our service men and women are the best there is and they proved it when given the job and the means to do it.

But what about our motives as a nation and people when it comes to making war and now the crumbling support of such a thing as is and has taken place in Iraq. I think we need to step back and ask ourselves as a nation why we may have supported the war to begin with and now why we do not if that be the case on a personal level. Nationally according to polling data, it is true.

If things were different in Iraq, if we were in effect clearly winning the war, would we as a nation be again solidly behind the effort and demand that our leaders not withdraw? Would polling data be the exact opposite? Would the democrats have won the recent election?

Some opinionmakers suggest we turned out republicans because of the corruption and I want to believe that's true. I could only hope and pray that factored in way more than the war because it gives me hope. However, would our historical warlike nature as humans have taken over if we were clearly and completely winning in Iraq and Afghanistan and the clear potential was there to also sack Iran in the process and caused us as a voting body to ignore rightous principles and stick with warring success? Would we ignore our own teams holding, clipping and personal fouls as long as we scored touchdowns and run up the lead on the scoreboard? To be clear here, the clipping, holding and other infractions are directed at the republican Congress and even the executive branch in a number of areas.

Just something this op-ed cuased me to ask myself.

Warmonger Rationale by Ralph R. Reiland[/quot

i

I agree somewhat. Americans are in love with the idea of spreading freedom but hate to sacrifice their own sons to do so. I think I have summaraized the gist of your post but I know I have not captureed the complete concept.
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
First off Tie, how's peak going for you guys? Been hectic for us but except for the usual hiccups, it's been fairly smooth. 7 more days and it's that time again. Time to begin working towards Peak 07'!
OH NO!:w00t:

:lol:

My point was that in 2002' Washington Post and ABC for example took a poll on a war with IRAQ and 79% favored war. Now polls then were framed with questions that skew the answers and if you move into 2003' you'll see the poll support for war quickly dropping as by this time public opposition from France and Germany had come out and on the diplomatic fronts, many were saying enough had not been done in that area. This pause caused many people to rethink and the polls reflected such but depending of the poll takers the results were different. I was reading one article where in 2003' as support was dropping that CBS did a poll showing around 60% support war with Iraq whereas at the same time Fox polled showed in the mid-70%. I don't think those numbers are any real surprise and to be honest I consider them both about as true clear a picture of the real national mood as the final vote tally on American Idol representing the actual best talent of all the contestants.

America is down on the war and rightfully so for many, many reasons. My point, as Reiland suggested in his op-ed piece was if the war was going well, if we were as they say, cruising to easy street, the oil in Iraq was flowing freely and democracy as we saw it was so-called flowing wildly, would we then overlook all the wrong reasons for the war and just accept the success as the pure justification for the whole thing?

Everyone loves a winner and would a majority of Americans just jump on the bandwagon for the victory parade? Reiland just barely touching human nature would suggest the American public would jump on that bandwagon and in all likelyhood have re-elected the republican Congress even in light of the massive and growing corruption that was found there.

I wonder how we would feel about WW2 today had it gone like Iraq or Vietnam? The last 60 years are teaching us that we need to ask more and more about the need for war before we wage it. WW2 for better or worse gave Americans a false sense of trusting gov't without question, a noble but misplaced loyality and since that time gov't has proven time and time again IMO that we were led down a primrose path that ends in briars and quicksand!

Some people scream that we were lied to and that is a valid point. However, I also find it of interest that many of these people who scream this the loudest, are politicos of the democratic side of the isle. It was their champions of rightousness who voted except for a few overwhelmingly in support of war and they have access to documents and the ability to question as great length to get to the bottom. In the end they voted for it by now the cry is, "it was a bunch of lies!" Is this cry nothing more than a plausible denial for their own shortcomings in doing their job or like the rest of us who are human, get swept up in the thought of war, conquest and the treasures of it?

Lastly, I don't engage in many of the holiday festivities that captures the American persona these days but I'm pretty certain you and your family does and in that, I hope you and your family have a wonderful holiday season!
 

wkmac

Well-Known Member
As a public service, I would like to direct those who wonder about wkmac's Libertarian views to read this: Critiques Of Libertarianism: A Non-Libertarian FAQ.

Get out your shovels, cause it gets mighty deep in Libertarianville!

Forget the shovels, we're gonna need earth movers in Libertarianville. I mean, you gotta do this right, opps I forgot the statists don't like that word but then the "Right" are statist too so what's the diference anyway? :lol:

Critiques Of Libertarianism
Mike's website has far more to it than what Slothrop linked above. Here's just one example which IMO goes into far more detail than the link SR provided. Take some time at this site and consider his points from an admitted skeptic point of view.

Libertarianism Makes You Stupid
"Libertarianism Makes You Stupid" I always liked the title of this piece.

Michael Williams -- Master of None: The Dangers of Libertarianism
From the article:
Libertarianism sounds good in theory, but in practice I don't trust humans not to devolve to the lowest common denominator once the threat of using physical force to enforce morality is removed.
I'd say that the majority of people would have that fear and or concern and it's valid.

What's wrong with libertarianism
From the article:
we live in interesting times, and among other consequences, for no good reason we have a surplus of libertarians. With this article I hope to help keep the demand low
Ah come on now, go for the extermination!

Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Now this one I think is a pretty good piece to consider.

Why is libertarianism wrong?
Now here's one that takes Libertarians to task on point by point issues.

Now all this should bury Libertarianville so deep it'll take those earth movers 24/7 for a while to even begin to dig out.

:lol:
 
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